[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Kirby Schrader kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Fri Apr 5 08:59:06 EDT 2013


Oh, crap.... I moved my condenser to the front.
:-)

Oh, my... What should I do?

Just kidding.... works for me. I'd have to get rid of the 180's or
reroute them to the side.
Oh, well....
Kirby


On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:58 AM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> Hi all
> First, my apologies if it's confusing who I address, and not everybody gets
> answers. My email puts most of the POCA mail in the unwanted folder,
> something I often forget to check. And apparently I can't send mails to Jim
> directly, get an error message. So I hope Jim reads this.
>
> Here's my $0.02. I think we often go for too fancy solutions, and I also
> think that saying that the Pantera was designed with cooling problems is not
> true. The original design works, see below. I'm well aware that probably a
> larger percentage of Panteras than most other cars have had cooling
> problems, the margin for error because of mid engine, hi power, small intake
> grill etc is smaller. But a well maintained cooling system Working As
> Designed works.
>
> My experience:
> Pantera 2: 600 HP, no cooling problems. WAD except radiator laid forward,
> larger puller fans
> Pantera 1: 300 HP, had cooling issues when bought, system looked very very
> original (read: old). I then did the following:
> -New Fluidyne radiator, original position
> -One cooling fan didn't work, fixed that
> -Both pusher fans were sitting almost 1" away from the radiator, should sit
> tight
> -New water pump, standard Weiand IIRC
> -New proper Cleveland thermostat, 180 IIRC
> -One new coolant hose
> -Double clamped all hoses
> -New 15 lbs cap
> -50% water/50% antifreeze
> With all these basic things done, no more cooling problems. Not even in the
> French summer at Le Mans Classis that year where it was tropical
>
> No need to use Water Wetter (making water more wet? Is this documented to
> work?), larger tubes, orifice plates, electric water pumps etc etc. Some of
> these things might apply for a track car, but for car to be driven in
> traffic etc., I'd suggest staying with the designed system.
>
> And BTW, don't move your A/C to the front, then the engine and the A/C have
> to share the same air stream, not good for either. And a rear mounted A/C
> can cool just fine, if again WAD.
>
> I realize I might sound a bit conservative and counter intuitive to most of
> the Pantera community, because we do like to experiment, and most Panteras
> are much improved compared to original because of it. But when these
> modifications don't produce the desired result, it's probably worth
> considering what the factory intended, the WAD view.
>
> Jim, this is for you, can't mail you directly (wish we had a forum instead
> of this damn mail list):
> "Sorry, it's a bit confusing who's asking who :-) The short answer on
> ignition timing is yes, use a vacuum gauge, set the timing to highest steady
> needle and no detonation/start problems. The long answer is read my book
> Tuning Made Easy :-)
>
> Hope this helps, otherwise get back to me"
>
> Thanks
>
> Mikael
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
> Sendt: 4. april 2013 22:48
> Til: gow2 at rc-tech.net; Kirby Schrader
> Cc: Jack Donahue; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> Water Wetter says it works best with water only.  I do as Kirby does and add
> just enough anti-freeze for corrosion resistance.
>
> Jim Gray
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "gow2 at rc-tech.net" <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
> To: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> Cc: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
> <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 3:25:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> Antifreeze raises the boiling temperature which is as vital as keeping it
> from freezing.
>
>
>> Mikael,
>>
>> If you're asking me...???
>>
>> It's intention (at least from my point of view) is to allow the use of
>> any thermostat (even a remote) as opposed to having to use the
>> Cleveland specific version which has been known to bypass even though
>> it was open and should have closed the bypass.
>>
>> The small hole in the plate helps get the air out of the system, which
>> seems to be of major concern.  :-)
>>
>> I wouldn't recommend a 160 degree thermostat to anybody and I don't
>> think I alluded to that. The engine would run too cold, like you say.
>> 190 is much much better.
>>
>> I live just north of Houston... 60-40 is probably closer to what I
>> run. It rarely gets below freezing here, so the antifreeze is mostly
>> for corrosion inhibition.
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>>> I'm a bit lost now. What is the purpose of that part? It defeats the
>>> Cleveland warm up possibility, but it doesn't let the engine run
>>> cooler, because the thermostat would close the hole anyway when warm,
> right?
>>>
>>> And if it's to get a 160 degree thermostat, I wouldn't recommend that.
>>> For a few reasons. Firstly, a colder thermostat rarely helps an
>>> overheating engine, because an engine rarely overheats because the
>>> thermostat is closed. Even getting near where it overheats, both a
>>> 160 and a 195 thermostat would be fully open, right? Secondly, the
>>> times where the engine is not overheating, cruising for instance, the
>>> engine will not be hot enough, which results in more wear, lower
>>> mileage and less power. A 160 thermostat is compensating for a
>>> problem, and not correcting it. Right?
>>>
>>> BTW, what coolant do you run? I always use 50%/50%.
>>>
>>> Mikael
>>>
>>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>>> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
>>> Sendt: 4. april 2013 18:00
>>> Til: Kirby Schrader; Jack Donahue
>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>
>>> Which is actually where I got mine.  I had seen it in one of Chuck
>>> Engle's engines.
>>>
>>> Jim Gray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>> To: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>>> Cc: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>; detomaso at poca.com
>>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 9:37:04 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>
>>> The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the
>>> manufacturer.
>>>
>>> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate
>>> .htm
>>>
>>> FWIW,
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
>>>> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific
>>>>> 160 deg thermostats, only 180-192-195.  Those in the know say we
>>>>> should always run
>>> the
>>>>> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no
>>>>> problems.
>>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>>
>>>>> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new
>>>>> aluminum plate that replaces the brass one under the thermostat.
>>>>> This new aluminum plate
>>> has
>>>>> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump
>>>>> or
>>>>thermostat
>>>>> doesn't have to be used.  Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even
>>>>>Chevy  thermostat.  Also no water pump with the special bypass is
>>>>>needed.  We'll see if  any of this makes a difference.  The new
>>>>>aluminum plate came from Dennis  Quella.  The small hole lets any
>>>>>air out of the block.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>>>>> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
>>>>> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>>>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content
>>>>> with their cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there.
>>>>> It's like, "what
>>>>the
>>>>> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as
>>>>>suggested by  some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate -
>>>>>and I only have a couple  thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to
>>>>>try  anything. I live in so.
>>>>>California,
>>>>> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes
>>>>>with the air  on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm,  -
>>>>>I,m screwed. I was in  Austin  for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me
>>>>>of
>>>>>I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played  with cars my whole life, and cooling
>>>>>this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS
>>>>NOT
>>>>> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white
>>>>> car
>>>>without
>>>>> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic
>>>>> exhaust (
>>> I
>>>>> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a
>>>>>750  holly.
>>>>>No
>>>>> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just
>>>>>haven't hit the  right button yet. I wish these cool running cars
>>>>>could be transported here
>>> and
>>>>> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple
>>>>> years.
>>> Fine,
>>>>> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run
>>>>>for a radiator  cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to
>>>>>where I could blow all the  liquid out, then hang the car by it's
>>>>>rear, and fill it. Bleeding the
>>> radiator
>>>>> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling
>>>>> it like that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain
>>>>> about air in the system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in
>>>>> the water pump. Now I'm
>>> down
>>>>> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've
>>>>>played around  with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change
>>>>>easily, I'd like to try 160
>>>>>-
>>>>> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I
>>>>>get an oil  temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is
>>>>>relative to  the coolant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jack
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators,
>>>>>> changed fans,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and
>>>>>> *still* have problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked
>>>>>> the car
>>> up
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the back to get the air out of the system .
>>>>>> Never had a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, well .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW,
>>>>>> Kirby
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>>>><michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot
>>>>>>> water?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system,
>>>>>>> jacking up the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof
>>>>>>> that gave our cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to
> this day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass
>>>>>>> radiator, siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes
>>>>>>> with a dual electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run
>>>>>>> a 1/3 100% antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle
>>>>>>> of water wetter coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where
>>>>>>> the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
>>>>>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would
>>>>>>> overheat would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving
>>>>>>> the engine past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in
>>>>>>> more temporate weather 170 degrees.
>>>>>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for
>>>>>>> light aircraft )  I would say the single biggest improve came as
>>>>>>> a result of having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years
>>>>>>> worth of tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and
>>>>>>> flourides do produce a white build up which can retrict smooth
>>>>>>> and speedy waterflow if not block off entire rows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the
>>>>>>> difference for yourself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air
>>>>>>>> in the system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in
>>>>>>>> the air, and bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the
>>>>>>>> water ahead of the air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had
>>>>>>>> an "explosion" in the engine bay as I was putting down a city
> street.
>>>>>>>> A giant white plume of "white". I thought the engine blew. When
>>>>>>>> I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it
>>> was
>>>>>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic
>>>>>>>> that had worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and
>>>>>>>> installed the motor, and
>>> he
>>>>>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this
>>>>>>>> baby to burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since.
>>>>>>>> Obviously, the pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it
>>>>>>>> worked perfectly. Another
>>>>>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system
>>>>>>>> pump, pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car,
>>>>>>>> putting the radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few
>>>>>>>> minutes for the bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted
>>>>>>>> around forever. I do, however, like John Taphorn's article on
>>>>>>>> cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative, even
>>>>>>>> though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and
>>>>>>>> overflow caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc.  and
>>>>>>>> my blood pressure is synchronous with the water temp gauge.
>>>>>>>> Kirby Schrader told me in an email that the only way his car
>>>>>>>> will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>>>>>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like
>>>>>>>> a dream (goal).
>>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
>>>>>>>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push
>>>>>>>>> water into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to
>>>>>>>>> fill the block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over
>>>>>>>>> into the tube going away from the engine no air pocket should
>>>>>>>>> be present in the engine. There will be two air pockets. One in
>>>>>>>>> the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you have one. If
>>>>>>>>> no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in the
>>>>>>>>> thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
>>>>>>>>> conventional way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is
>>>>>>>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain
>>>>>>>>> amount of air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that
>>>>>>>>> it's the best way to fill the system.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it
>>>>>>>>>will  see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or
>>>>>>>>>parking on a  slope. There is no possibility that air would be
>>>>>>>>>trapped in the straight  under car tubes after that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before
>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And
>>>>>>>>> you're driving!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as
>>>>>>>>> much as
>>>>>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago
>>>>>>>>> to a new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.
>>>>>>>>> He bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy
>>>>>>>>> but solid Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.
>>>>>>>>> One side was beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot
>>>>>>>>> right against the fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and
>>>>>>>>> battered the side of the car.  But the damage was all rather
>>>>>>>>> trivial.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First
>>>>>>>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the
>>>>>>>>> fluids--water and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just
>>>>>>>>> filled it up and topped it off until the tank was full, on
>>>>>>>>> level ground.  He then closed the cap, and took off across the
>>>>>>>>> Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to
>>>>>>>>> see how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place
>>>>>>>>> because there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light
>>>>>>>>> so he just ran it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great
>>>>>>>>> time, eyes on the road of course, so he failed to notice that
>>>>>>>>> because he hadn't properly filled the cooling system, the temp
> gauge was pegged.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he
>>>>>>>>> learn the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not
>>>>>>>>>>>> doing it has
>>>>>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And
>>>>>>>>> the manual directs you to do it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
>>>>>>>>style="font-size:13.5px">____________________________________________
> ___________________<BR>Annons:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>:
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>> :
>>>>>>>> <a href="http://blimedlem.spray.se/">Skaffa Spray Mail du ocks
>>>>>>>>- Gratis,  enkelt och s kert!</a></font>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>>>
>>>> DeTomaso mailing list
>>>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>>>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at poca.com
>> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at poca.com
> http://poca.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
>
>
> -----
> Ingen virus fundet i denne meddelelse.
> Kontrolleret af AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virusdatabase: 2641/5724 - Udgivelsesdato: 04-04-2013
>
>



More information about the DeTomaso mailing list