[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
Mikael
mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
Fri Apr 5 01:58:22 EDT 2013
Hi all
First, my apologies if it's confusing who I address, and not everybody gets
answers. My email puts most of the POCA mail in the unwanted folder,
something I often forget to check. And apparently I can't send mails to Jim
directly, get an error message. So I hope Jim reads this.
Here's my $0.02. I think we often go for too fancy solutions, and I also
think that saying that the Pantera was designed with cooling problems is not
true. The original design works, see below. I'm well aware that probably a
larger percentage of Panteras than most other cars have had cooling
problems, the margin for error because of mid engine, hi power, small intake
grill etc is smaller. But a well maintained cooling system Working As
Designed works.
My experience:
Pantera 2: 600 HP, no cooling problems. WAD except radiator laid forward,
larger puller fans
Pantera 1: 300 HP, had cooling issues when bought, system looked very very
original (read: old). I then did the following:
-New Fluidyne radiator, original position
-One cooling fan didn't work, fixed that
-Both pusher fans were sitting almost 1" away from the radiator, should sit
tight
-New water pump, standard Weiand IIRC
-New proper Cleveland thermostat, 180 IIRC
-One new coolant hose
-Double clamped all hoses
-New 15 lbs cap
-50% water/50% antifreeze
With all these basic things done, no more cooling problems. Not even in the
French summer at Le Mans Classis that year where it was tropical
No need to use Water Wetter (making water more wet? Is this documented to
work?), larger tubes, orifice plates, electric water pumps etc etc. Some of
these things might apply for a track car, but for car to be driven in
traffic etc., I'd suggest staying with the designed system.
And BTW, don't move your A/C to the front, then the engine and the A/C have
to share the same air stream, not good for either. And a rear mounted A/C
can cool just fine, if again WAD.
I realize I might sound a bit conservative and counter intuitive to most of
the Pantera community, because we do like to experiment, and most Panteras
are much improved compared to original because of it. But when these
modifications don't produce the desired result, it's probably worth
considering what the factory intended, the WAD view.
Jim, this is for you, can't mail you directly (wish we had a forum instead
of this damn mail list):
"Sorry, it's a bit confusing who's asking who :-) The short answer on
ignition timing is yes, use a vacuum gauge, set the timing to highest steady
needle and no detonation/start problems. The long answer is read my book
Tuning Made Easy :-)
Hope this helps, otherwise get back to me"
Thanks
Mikael
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
Sendt: 4. april 2013 22:48
Til: gow2 at rc-tech.net; Kirby Schrader
Cc: Jack Donahue; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
Water Wetter says it works best with water only. I do as Kirby does and add
just enough anti-freeze for corrosion resistance.
Jim Gray
----- Original Message ----
From: "gow2 at rc-tech.net" <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
To: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
Cc: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael
<mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 3:25:17 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
Antifreeze raises the boiling temperature which is as vital as keeping it
from freezing.
> Mikael,
>
> If you're asking me...???
>
> It's intention (at least from my point of view) is to allow the use of
> any thermostat (even a remote) as opposed to having to use the
> Cleveland specific version which has been known to bypass even though
> it was open and should have closed the bypass.
>
> The small hole in the plate helps get the air out of the system, which
> seems to be of major concern. :-)
>
> I wouldn't recommend a 160 degree thermostat to anybody and I don't
> think I alluded to that. The engine would run too cold, like you say.
> 190 is much much better.
>
> I live just north of Houston... 60-40 is probably closer to what I
> run. It rarely gets below freezing here, so the antifreeze is mostly
> for corrosion inhibition.
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>> I'm a bit lost now. What is the purpose of that part? It defeats the
>> Cleveland warm up possibility, but it doesn't let the engine run
>> cooler, because the thermostat would close the hole anyway when warm,
right?
>>
>> And if it's to get a 160 degree thermostat, I wouldn't recommend that.
>> For a few reasons. Firstly, a colder thermostat rarely helps an
>> overheating engine, because an engine rarely overheats because the
>> thermostat is closed. Even getting near where it overheats, both a
>> 160 and a 195 thermostat would be fully open, right? Secondly, the
>> times where the engine is not overheating, cruising for instance, the
>> engine will not be hot enough, which results in more wear, lower
>> mileage and less power. A 160 thermostat is compensating for a
>> problem, and not correcting it. Right?
>>
>> BTW, what coolant do you run? I always use 50%/50%.
>>
>> Mikael
>>
>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
>> Sendt: 4. april 2013 18:00
>> Til: Kirby Schrader; Jack Donahue
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>> Which is actually where I got mine. I had seen it in one of Chuck
>> Engle's engines.
>>
>> Jim Gray
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> To: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>> Cc: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>; detomaso at poca.com
>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 9:37:04 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>> The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the
>> manufacturer.
>>
>> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate
>> .htm
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
>>> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
>>>
>>>> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific
>>>> 160 deg thermostats, only 180-192-195. Those in the know say we
>>>> should always run
>> the
>>>> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no
>>>> problems.
>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>
>>>> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new
>>>> aluminum plate that replaces the brass one under the thermostat.
>>>> This new aluminum plate
>> has
>>>> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump
>>>> or
>>>thermostat
>>>> doesn't have to be used. Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even
>>>>Chevy thermostat. Also no water pump with the special bypass is
>>>>needed. We'll see if any of this makes a difference. The new
>>>>aluminum plate came from Dennis Quella. The small hole lets any
>>>>air out of the block.
>>>>
>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>>>> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
>>>> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content
>>>> with their cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there.
>>>> It's like, "what
>>>the
>>>> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as
>>>>suggested by some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate -
>>>>and I only have a couple thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to
>>>>try anything. I live in so.
>>>>California,
>>>> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes
>>>>with the air on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm, -
>>>>I,m screwed. I was in Austin for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me
>>>>of
>>>>I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played with cars my whole life, and cooling
>>>>this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS
>>>NOT
>>>> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white
>>>> car
>>>without
>>>> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic
>>>> exhaust (
>> I
>>>> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a
>>>>750 holly.
>>>>No
>>>> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just
>>>>haven't hit the right button yet. I wish these cool running cars
>>>>could be transported here
>> and
>>>> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple
>>>> years.
>> Fine,
>>>> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run
>>>>for a radiator cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to
>>>>where I could blow all the liquid out, then hang the car by it's
>>>>rear, and fill it. Bleeding the
>> radiator
>>>> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling
>>>> it like that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain
>>>> about air in the system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in
>>>> the water pump. Now I'm
>> down
>>>> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've
>>>>played around with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change
>>>>easily, I'd like to try 160
>>>>-
>>>> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I
>>>>get an oil temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is
>>>>relative to the coolant.
>>>>
>>>> Jack
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators,
>>>>> changed fans,
>>>>>
>>>>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and
>>>>> *still* have problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked
>>>>> the car
>> up
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>> the back to get the air out of the system .
>>>>> Never had a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, well .
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW,
>>>>> Kirby
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>>><michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF? Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot
>>>>>> water?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system,
>>>>>> jacking up the rear. It is this very procedure or lack thereof
>>>>>> that gave our cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to
this day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass
>>>>>> radiator, siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes
>>>>>> with a dual electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run
>>>>>> a 1/3 100% antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle
>>>>>> of water wetter coolant mix. I live in Savannah, Georgia where
>>>>>> the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
>>>>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would
>>>>>> overheat would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving
>>>>>> the engine past 3,000 rpms. It is all I can do to hit 180 and in
>>>>>> more temporate weather 170 degrees.
>>>>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for
>>>>>> light aircraft ) I would say the single biggest improve came as
>>>>>> a result of having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years
>>>>>> worth of tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and
>>>>>> flourides do produce a white build up which can retrict smooth
>>>>>> and speedy waterflow if not block off entire rows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the
>>>>>> difference for yourself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air
>>>>>>> in the system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in
>>>>>>> the air, and bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the
>>>>>>> water ahead of the air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had
>>>>>>> an "explosion" in the engine bay as I was putting down a city
street.
>>>>>>> A giant white plume of "white". I thought the engine blew. When
>>>>>>> I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it
>> was
>>>>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic
>>>>>>> that had worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and
>>>>>>> installed the motor, and
>> he
>>>>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this
>>>>>>> baby to burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since.
>>>>>>> Obviously, the pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it
>>>>>>> worked perfectly. Another
>>>>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system
>>>>>>> pump, pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car,
>>>>>>> putting the radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few
>>>>>>> minutes for the bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted
>>>>>>> around forever. I do, however, like John Taphorn's article on
>>>>>>> cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative, even
>>>>>>> though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and
>>>>>>> overflow caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc. and
>>>>>>> my blood pressure is synchronous with the water temp gauge.
>>>>>>> Kirby Schrader told me in an email that the only way his car
>>>>>>> will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>>>>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like
>>>>>>> a dream (goal).
>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
>>>>>>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push
>>>>>>>> water into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to
>>>>>>>> fill the block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over
>>>>>>>> into the tube going away from the engine no air pocket should
>>>>>>>> be present in the engine. There will be two air pockets. One in
>>>>>>>> the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you have one. If
>>>>>>>> no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in the
>>>>>>>> thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
>>>>>>>> conventional way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is
>>>>>>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain
>>>>>>>> amount of air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that
>>>>>>>> it's the best way to fill the system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it
>>>>>>>>will see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or
>>>>>>>>parking on a slope. There is no possibility that air would be
>>>>>>>>trapped in the straight under car tubes after that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No. Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine! And
>>>>>>>> you're driving!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as
>>>>>>>> much as
>>>>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago
>>>>>>>> to a new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.
>>>>>>>> He bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy
>>>>>>>> but solid Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.
>>>>>>>> One side was beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot
>>>>>>>> right against the fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and
>>>>>>>> battered the side of the car. But the damage was all rather
>>>>>>>> trivial.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras. First
>>>>>>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the
>>>>>>>> fluids--water and oil. He drained all the coolant, then just
>>>>>>>> filled it up and topped it off until the tank was full, on
>>>>>>>> level ground. He then closed the cap, and took off across the
>>>>>>>> Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac. Great guy, but a maniac. He wanted to
>>>>>>>> see how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place
>>>>>>>> because there's no place for cops to hide. Traffic was light
>>>>>>>> so he just ran it up to redline in 5th gear. Having a great
>>>>>>>> time, eyes on the road of course, so he failed to notice that
>>>>>>>> because he hadn't properly filled the cooling system, the temp
gauge was pegged.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BOOM!!!!!! The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he
>>>>>>>> learn the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not
>>>>>>>>>>> doing it has
>>>>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past. And
>>>>>>>> the manual directs you to do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
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