[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

[Jim Gray]

Water Wetter says it works best with water only.  I do as Kirby does and add 
just enough anti-freeze for corrosion resistance.

Jim Gray



----- Original Message ----
From: "gow2 at rc-tech.net" <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
To: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
Cc: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>; detomaso at poca.com; Mikael 
<mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 3:25:17 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Antifreeze raises the boiling temperature which is as vital as keeping it
from freezing.


> Mikael,
>
> If you're asking me...???
>
> It's intention (at least from my point of view) is to allow the use of
> any thermostat (even a remote) as opposed to having to use the
> Cleveland specific version which has been known to bypass even though
> it was open and should have closed the bypass.
>
> The small hole in the plate helps get the air out of the system, which
> seems to be of major concern.  :-)
>
> I wouldn't recommend a 160 degree thermostat to anybody and I don't
> think I alluded to that. The engine would run too cold, like you say.
> 190 is much much better.
>
> I live just north of Houston... 60-40 is probably closer to what I
> run. It rarely gets below freezing here, so the antifreeze is mostly
> for corrosion inhibition.
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>> I'm a bit lost now. What is the purpose of that part? It defeats the
>> Cleveland warm up possibility, but it doesn't let the engine run cooler,
>> because the thermostat would close the hole anyway when warm, right?
>>
>> And if it's to get a 160 degree thermostat, I wouldn't recommend that.
>> For a few reasons. Firstly, a colder thermostat rarely helps an
>> overheating engine, because an engine rarely overheats because the
>> thermostat is closed. Even getting near where it overheats, both a 160
>> and a 195 thermostat would be fully open, right? Secondly, the times
>> where the engine is not overheating, cruising for instance, the engine
>> will not be hot enough, which results in more wear, lower mileage and
>> less power. A 160 thermostat is compensating for a problem, and not
>> correcting it. Right?
>>
>> BTW, what coolant do you run? I always use 50%/50%.
>>
>> Mikael
>>
>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
>> Sendt: 4. april 2013 18:00
>> Til: Kirby Schrader; Jack Donahue
>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>> Which is actually where I got mine.  I had seen it in one of Chuck
>> Engle's engines.
>>
>> Jim Gray
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> To: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>> Cc: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>; detomaso at poca.com
>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 9:37:04 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>> The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the
>> manufacturer.
>>
>> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate.htm
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
>>> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
>>>
>>>> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific 160
>>>> deg thermostats, only 180-192-195.  Those in the know say we should
>>>> always run
>> the
>>>> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no
>>>> problems.
>>>> Yeah, right.
>>>>
>>>> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new
>>>> aluminum plate that replaces the brass one under the thermostat.
>>>> This new aluminum plate
>> has
>>>> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump or
>>>thermostat
>>>> doesn't have to be used.  Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even
>>>>Chevy  thermostat.  Also no water pump with the special bypass is
>>>>needed.  We'll see if  any of this makes a difference.  The new
>>>>aluminum plate came from Dennis  Quella.  The small hole lets any air
>>>>out of the block.
>>>>
>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>>>> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
>>>> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
>>>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>
>>>> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content
>>>> with their cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there.
>>>> It's like, "what
>>>the
>>>> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as
>>>>suggested by  some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate - and
>>>>I only have a couple  thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to try
>>>> anything. I live in so.
>>>>California,
>>>> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes
>>>>with the air  on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm,  - I,m
>>>>screwed. I was in  Austin  for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me of
>>>>I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played  with cars my whole life, and cooling
>>>>this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS
>>>NOT
>>>> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white
>>>> car
>>>without
>>>> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic
>>>> exhaust (
>> I
>>>> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a 750
>>>> holly.
>>>>No
>>>> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just
>>>>haven't hit the  right button yet. I wish these cool running cars
>>>>could be transported here
>> and
>>>> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple
>>>> years.
>> Fine,
>>>> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run for
>>>>a radiator  cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to where I
>>>>could blow all the  liquid out, then hang the car by it's rear, and
>>>>fill it. Bleeding the
>> radiator
>>>> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling
>>>> it like that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain
>>>> about air in the system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in
>>>> the water pump. Now I'm
>> down
>>>> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've played
>>>>around  with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change easily, I'd
>>>>like to try 160
>>>>-
>>>> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I get
>>>>an oil  temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is relative to
>>>> the coolant.
>>>>
>>>> Jack
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators,
>>>>> changed fans,
>>>>>
>>>>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and *still*
>>>>> have problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Gray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>>>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked
>>>>> the car
>> up
>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>> the back to get the air out of the system .
>>>>> Never had a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, well .
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW,
>>>>> Kirby
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>>><michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot
>>>>>> water?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking
>>>>>> up the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave
>>>>>> our cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator,
>>>>>> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual
>>>>>> electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100%
>>>>>> antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water
>>>>>> wetter coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where the summer
>>>>>> temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
>>>>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would
>>>>>> overheat would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving
>>>>>> the engine past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in
>>>>>> more temporate weather 170 degrees.
>>>>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light
>>>>>> aircraft )  I would say the single biggest improve came as a result
>>>>>> of having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth
>>>>>> of tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides
>>>>>> do produce a white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy
>>>>>> waterflow if not block off entire rows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the
>>>>>> difference for yourself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in
>>>>>>> the system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the
>>>>>>> air, and bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water
>>>>>>> ahead of the air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had an
>>>>>>> "explosion" in the engine bay as I was putting down a city street.
>>>>>>> A giant white plume of "white". I thought the engine blew. When I
>>>>>>> pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it
>> was
>>>>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic that
>>>>>>> had worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and installed the
>>>>>>> motor, and
>> he
>>>>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this
>>>>>>> baby to burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since.
>>>>>>> Obviously, the pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it worked
>>>>>>> perfectly. Another
>>>>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump,
>>>>>>> pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting
>>>>>>> the radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes
>>>>>>> for the bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted around
>>>>>>> forever. I do, however, like John Taphorn's article on cooling,
>>>>>>> and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative, even though I don't
>>>>>>> have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and overflow caps,
>>>>>>> Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc.  and my blood pressure
>>>>>>> is synchronous with the water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me
>>>>>>> in an email that the only way his car will overheat in 100 degree
>>>>>>> weather (at an
>>>>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a
>>>>>>> dream (goal).
>>>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
>>>>>>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push water
>>>>>>>> into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the
>>>>>>>> block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over into the
>>>>>>>> tube going away from the engine no air pocket should be present
>>>>>>>> in the engine. There will be two air pockets. One in the
>>>>>>>> radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you have one. If no
>>>>>>>> swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in the
>>>>>>>> thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
>>>>>>>> conventional way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is
>>>>>>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount
>>>>>>>> of air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that it's the
>>>>>>>> best way to fill the system.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it
>>>>>>>>will  see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or
>>>>>>>>parking on a  slope. There is no possibility that air would be
>>>>>>>>trapped in the straight  under car tubes after that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>>>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And you're
>>>>>>>> driving!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to
>>>>>>>> a new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.  He
>>>>>>>> bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but
>>>>>>>> solid Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.  One
>>>>>>>> side was beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot right
>>>>>>>> against the fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and
>>>>>>>> battered the side of the car.  But the damage was all rather
>>>>>>>> trivial.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First
>>>>>>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the
>>>>>>>> fluids--water and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just
>>>>>>>> filled it up and topped it off until the tank was full, on level
>>>>>>>> ground.  He then closed the cap, and took off across the Richmond
>>>>>>>> bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to
>>>>>>>> see how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because
>>>>>>>> there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light so he just
>>>>>>>> ran it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great time, eyes on
>>>>>>>> the road of course, so he failed to notice that because he hadn't
>>>>>>>> properly filled the cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn
>>>>>>>> the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing
>>>>>>>>>>> it has
>>>>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And the
>>>>>>>> manual directs you to do it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
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