[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Mikael mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk
Thu Apr 4 15:40:51 EDT 2013 

I'm a bit lost now. What is the purpose of that part? It defeats the Cleveland warm up possibility, but it doesn't let the engine run cooler, because the thermostat would close the hole anyway when warm, right?

And if it's to get a 160 degree thermostat, I wouldn't recommend that. For a few reasons. Firstly, a colder thermostat rarely helps an overheating engine, because an engine rarely overheats because the thermostat is closed. Even getting near where it overheats, both a 160 and a 195 thermostat would be fully open, right? Secondly, the times where the engine is not overheating, cruising for instance, the engine will not be hot enough, which results in more wear, lower mileage and less power. A 160 thermostat is compensating for a problem, and not correcting it. Right?

BTW, what coolant do you run? I always use 50%/50%.

Mikael

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net] 
Sendt: 4. april 2013 18:00
Til: Kirby Schrader; Jack Donahue
Cc: detomaso at poca.com
Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Which is actually where I got mine.  I had seen it in one of Chuck Engle's engines.

Jim Gray 



----- Original Message ----
From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
To: Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
Cc: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>; detomaso at poca.com
Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 9:37:04 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

The aluminum block off plate is available directly from the manufacturer.

http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/Thermostat%20block%20off%20plate.htm

FWIW,
Kirby


On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Jack Donahue <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
> The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
> On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
>
>> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific 160 
>> deg thermostats, only 180-192-195.  Those in the know say we should 
>> always run
the
>> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no problems.
>> Yeah, right.
>>
>> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new 
>> aluminum plate that replaces the brass one under the thermostat.  
>> This new aluminum plate
has
>> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump or
>thermostat
>> doesn't have to be used.  Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even 
>>Chevy  thermostat.  Also no water pump with the special bypass is 
>>needed.  We'll see if  any of this makes a difference.  The new 
>>aluminum plate came from Dennis  Quella.  The small hole lets any air 
>>out of the block.
>>
>> Jim Gray
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
>> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
>> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content 
>> with their cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there. 
>> It's like, "what
>the
>> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as 
>>suggested by  some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate - and 
>>I only have a couple  thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to try anything. I live in so.
>>California,
>> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes 
>>with the air  on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm,  - I,m 
>>screwed. I was in  Austin  for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me of 
>>I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played  with cars my whole life, and cooling 
>>this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS
>NOT
>> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white 
>> car
>without
>> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic 
>> exhaust (
I
>> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a 750 holly. 
>>No
>> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just 
>>haven't hit the  right button yet. I wish these cool running cars 
>>could be transported here
and
>> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple years. 
Fine,
>> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run for 
>>a radiator  cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to where I 
>>could blow all the  liquid out, then hang the car by it's rear, and 
>>fill it. Bleeding the
radiator
>> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling 
>> it like that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain 
>> about air in the system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in 
>> the water pump. Now I'm
down
>> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've played 
>>around  with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change easily, I'd 
>>like to try 160
>>-
>> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I get 
>>an oil  temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is relative to the coolant.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators, 
>>> changed fans,
>>>
>>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and *still* 
>>> have problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>>
>>> Jim Gray
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>
>>>
>>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked 
>>> the car
up
>>> in
>>>
>>> the back to get the air out of the system .
>>> Never had a problem.
>>>
>>> Oh, well .
>>>
>>> FWIW,
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
><michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot water?
>>>>
>>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking 
>>>> up the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave 
>>>> our cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
>>>>
>>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>>
>>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator, 
>>>> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual 
>>>> electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100% 
>>>> antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water 
>>>> wetter coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where the summer 
>>>> temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
>>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would 
>>>> overheat would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving 
>>>> the engine past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in 
>>>> more temporate weather 170 degrees.
>>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light 
>>>> aircraft )  I would say the single biggest improve came as a result 
>>>> of having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>>
>>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth 
>>>> of tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides 
>>>> do produce a white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy 
>>>> waterflow if not block off entire rows.
>>>>
>>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the 
>>>> difference for yourself.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in 
>>>>> the system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the 
>>>>> air, and bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water 
>>>>> ahead of the air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had an 
>>>>> "explosion" in the engine bay as I was putting down a city street. 
>>>>> A giant white plume of "white". I thought the engine blew. When I 
>>>>> pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it
was
>>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic that 
>>>>> had worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and installed the 
>>>>> motor, and
he
>>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this 
>>>>> baby to burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since. 
>>>>> Obviously, the pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it worked 
>>>>> perfectly. Another
>>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump, 
>>>>> pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting 
>>>>> the radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes 
>>>>> for the bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted around 
>>>>> forever. I do, however, like John Taphorn's article on cooling, 
>>>>> and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative, even though I don't 
>>>>> have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and overflow caps, 
>>>>> Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc.  and my blood pressure 
>>>>> is synchronous with the water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me 
>>>>> in an email that the only way his car will overheat in 100 degree 
>>>>> weather (at an
>>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a 
>>>>> dream (goal).
>>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's 
>>>>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push water 
>>>>>> into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the 
>>>>>> block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over into the 
>>>>>> tube going away from the engine no air pocket should be present 
>>>>>> in the engine. There will be two air pockets. One in the 
>>>>>> radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you have one. If no 
>>>>>> swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in the 
>>>>>> thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably conventional way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is 
>>>>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount 
>>>>>> of air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that it's the 
>>>>>> best way to fill the system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it 
>>>>>>will  see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or 
>>>>>>parking on a  slope. There is no possibility that air would be 
>>>>>>trapped in the straight  under car tubes after that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And you're 
>>>>>> driving!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much 
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to 
>>>>>> a new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.  He 
>>>>>> bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but 
>>>>>> solid Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.  One 
>>>>>> side was beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot right 
>>>>>> against the fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and 
>>>>>> battered the side of the car.  But the damage was all rather trivial.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First 
>>>>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the 
>>>>>> fluids--water and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just 
>>>>>> filled it up and topped it off until the tank was full, on level 
>>>>>> ground.  He then closed the cap, and took off across the Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to 
>>>>>> see how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because 
>>>>>> there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light so he just 
>>>>>> ran it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great time, eyes on 
>>>>>> the road of course, so he failed to notice that because he hadn't 
>>>>>> properly filled the cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn 
>>>>>> the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing 
>>>>>>>>> it has
>>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And the 
>>>>>> manual directs you to do it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
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>>>>> :
>>>>> :
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>>>>>Gratis,  enkelt och s kert!</a></font>
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