[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
Jack Donahue
demongusta at me.com
Thu Apr 4 10:31:41 EDT 2013
The electric water pump is sounding better all the time.
On Apr 4, 2013, at 6:48 AM, Jim Gray wrote:
> One problem is that there don't seem to be any Cleveland-specific 160 deg
> thermostats, only 180-192-195. Those in the know say we should always run the
> 192-195 units and if the system is working correctly, we'll have no problems.
> Yeah, right.
>
> One change I made late last year was the installation of a new aluminum plate
> that replaces the brass one under the thermostat. This new aluminum plate has
> only a small 1/4 " hole so that the Cleveland-specific water pump or thermostat
> doesn't have to be used. Now I can use a 160 deg Windsor or even Chevy
> thermostat. Also no water pump with the special bypass is needed. We'll see if
> any of this makes a difference. The new aluminum plate came from Dennis
> Quella. The small hole lets any air out of the block.
>
> Jim Gray
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Donahue <demongusta at me.com>
> To: Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net>
> Cc: "DeTomaso at poca.com" <DeTomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Thu, April 4, 2013 12:50:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content with their
> cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there. It's like, "what the
> heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne flushed, as suggested by
> some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate - and I only have a couple
> thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to try anything. I live in so. California,
> and if a traffic jam occurs, and it it's more than a couple minutes with the air
> on, or off, on interstate 5, in August, at 3 pm, - I,m screwed. I was in
> Austin for the F-1 race and I-35 reminded me of I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played
> with cars my whole life, and cooling this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS NOT
> half the cars I read about on the List. I have a sweet little white car without
> a million hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic exhaust ( I
> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a 750 holly. No
> reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just haven't hit the
> right button yet. I wish these cool running cars could be transported here and
> drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up in a couple years. Fine,
> I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on what people run for a radiator
> cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator pump to where I could blow all the
> liquid out, then hang the car by it's rear, and fill it. Bleeding the radiator
> as needed to have pure liquid. That was Kirby's suggestion (filling it like
> that, not hanging the car up) - and I'd know for certain about air in the
> system. Sometimes I wonder about an air pocket in the water pump. Now I'm down
> to "how much pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've played around
> with thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change easily, I'd like to try 160 -
> 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I get an oil
> temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is relative to the coolant.
>
> Jack
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators, changed
>> fans,
>>
>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and *still* have
>> problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>
>> Jim Gray
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>>
>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked the car up
>> in
>>
>> the back to get the air out of the system….
>> Never had a problem.
>>
>> Oh, well….
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> WTF? Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot water?
>>>
>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking up the
>>> rear. It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave our cars an
>>> overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
>>>
>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>
>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator,
>>> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual electric
>>> fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100% antifreeze and 2/3
>>> distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water wetter coolant mix. I live in
>>> Savannah, Georgia where the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with 90%
>>> humidity.
>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would overheat would
>>> be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving the engine past 3,000
>>> rpms. It is all I can do to hit 180 and in more temporate weather 170
>>> degrees.
>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light aircraft
>>> ) I would say the single biggest improve came as a result of having the
>>> radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>
>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth of tap
>>> water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides do produce a
>>> white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy waterflow if not block
>>> off entire rows.
>>>
>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the difference for
>>> yourself.
>>>
>>> Michael Shortt
>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in the
>>>> system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the air, and
>>>> bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water ahead of the air? Why
>>>> not raise the front? Years ago I had an "explosion" in the engine bay as I
>>>> was putting down a city street. A giant white plume of "white". I thought
>>>> the engine blew. When I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked, it was
>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic that had
>>>> worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and installed the motor, and he
>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this baby to
>>>> burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since. Obviously, the
>>>> pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it worked perfectly. Another
>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump, pump up
>>>> the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting the radiator at
>>>> the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes for the bubbles to rise. I
>>>> guess this will be batted around forever. I do, however, like John
>>>> Taphorn's article on cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is imperative,
>>>> even though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and overflow
>>>> caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc. and my blood pressure is
>>>> synchronous with the water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me in an email
>>>> that the only way his car will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a dream
>>>> (goal).
>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's enough
>>>>> water in the system to allow the water pump to push water into the
>>>>> block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the block and the
>>>>> thermostat neck high enough to run over into the tube going away from
>>>>> the engine no air pocket should be present in the engine. There will be
>>>>> two air pockets. One in the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if you
>>>>> have one. If no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in
>>>>> the thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
>>>>> conventional way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is however a
>>>>> way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount of air. Hence my
>>>>> surprise when I over and over hear that it's the best way to fill the
>>>>> system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>
>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it will
>>>>> see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or parking on a
>>>>> slope. There is no possibility that air would be trapped in the straight
>>>>> under car tubes after that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No. Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine! And you're
>>>>> driving!
>>>>>
>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much as
>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to a new
>>>>> Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere. He bought his
>>>>> Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but solid Euro GTS, and
>>>>> only paid $13K or something like that. One side was beat up because it
>>>>> had been parked in a fenced lot right against the fence, and the wind
>>>>> had whipped the fence and battered the side of the car. But the damage
>>>>> was all rather trivial.
>>>>>
>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras. First thing he
>>>>> did when he got it home was to change all the fluids--water and oil. He
>>>>> drained all the coolant, then just filled it up and topped it off until
>>>>> the tank was full, on level ground. He then closed the cap, and took
>>>>> off across the Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>>
>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac. Great guy, but a maniac. He wanted to see how
>>>>> fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because there's no
>>>>> place for cops to hide. Traffic was light so he just ran it up to
>>>>> redline in 5th gear. Having a great time, eyes on the road of course,
>>>>> so he failed to notice that because he hadn't properly filled the
>>>>> cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>>>>
>>>>> BOOM!!!!!! The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>
>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn the
>>>>> importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing it has
>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past. And the manual
>>>>> directs you to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
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