[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

gow2 at rc-tech.net gow2 at rc-tech.net
Thu Apr 4 09:04:24 EDT 2013 

I have had 2 cars that were hot which were difficult to cool. One was an
old engine, one was a new engine. The new engine was just being broke in.

The new engine is the V6 in the MGB. My radiator is about minimum size for
the car and engine. When it was new the engine would maintain temp but
then the oil temo would rise. When the oil temp would go above 250 it
would bring up the water temps. An oil cooler fixed that as did simply
time breaking it in.

The second was my Pantera before I removed the engine. I suspect blow by
was heating it up but it was the same cennario. As oil would climb above
250 the water would begin to climb form it's regulated temp.

G


> Thank you, Jim. Isn't it frustrating to hear other owners content with
> their cooling, when WE are trying to get there.get so all there. It's
> like, "what the heck am I doing wrong? I'm ready to have my Fluidyne
> flushed, as suggested by some here on the List - which I dearly appreciate
> - and I only have a couple thousand miles on it, but I'm willing to try
> anything. I live in so. California, and if a traffic jam occurs, and it
> it's more than a couple minutes with the air on, or off, on interstate 5,
> in August, at 3 pm,  - I,m screwed. I was in Austin  for the F-1 race and
> I-35 reminded me of I-5 in SoCal, I'm 65, played with cars my whole life,
> and cooling this Pantera is a challenge. My car IS NOT half the cars I
> read about on the List. I have a sweet little white car without a million
> hp and a million pounds of torque - no fuelly, no exotic exhaust ( I
> believe in luggage once in a while) etc. just a clean motor with a 750
> holly. No reason to blame the motor for the "hot running". I figure I just
> haven't hit the right button yet. I wish these cool running cars could be
> transported here and drive with me. Maybe the hard water here has built up
> in a couple years. Fine, I'll have it 'flushed", I'd like some feedback on
> what people run for a radiator cap, and what pressure. I have a radiator
> pump to where I could blow all the liquid out, then hang the car by it's
> rear, and fill it. Bleeding the radiator as needed to have pure liquid.
> That was Kirby's suggestion (filling it like that, not hanging the car up)
> - and I'd know for certain about air in the system. Sometimes I wonder
> about an air pocket in the water pump. Now I'm down to "how much
> pressure", the radiator cap, and thermostat. I've played around with
> thermostats. If it wasn't difficult to change easily, I'd like to try 160
> - 195 thermostats on different days, just to rule that out. After I get an
> oil temp gauge, I might be surprised how hot the oil is relative to the
> coolant.
> Jack
>
>
> On Apr 3, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>
>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators,
>> changed fans,
>> changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and *still* have
>> problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>
>> Jim Gray
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>>
>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked the
>> car up in
>> the back to get the air out of the system….
>> Never had a problem.
>>
>> Oh, well….
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
>> <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot water?
>>>
>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking up
>>> the
>>> rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave our cars an
>>> overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
>>>
>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>
>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator,
>>> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual
>>> electric
>>> fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100% antifreeze and
>>> 2/3
>>> distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water wetter coolant mix.  I
>>> live in
>>> Savannah, Georgia where the summer temps are often 95-100 degrees with
>>> 90%
>>> humidity.
>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would overheat
>>> would
>>> be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving the engine past
>>> 3,000
>>> rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in more temporate weather 170
>>> degrees.
>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light
>>> aircraft
>>> )  I would say the single biggest improve came as a result of having
>>> the
>>> radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>
>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth of
>>> tap
>>> water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides do produce a
>>> white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy waterflow if not
>>> block
>>> off entire rows.
>>>
>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the difference
>>> for
>>> yourself.
>>>
>>> Michael Shortt
>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in the
>>>> system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the air, and
>>>> bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water ahead of the air?
>>>> Why
>>>> not raise the front? Years ago I had an "explosion" in the engine bay
>>>> as I
>>>> was putting down a city street. A giant white plume of "white". I
>>>> thought
>>>> the engine blew. When I pulled over, lifted the deck lid and looked,
>>>> it was
>>>> devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. I called a mechanic that had
>>>> worked on the car after Don Nicholson built and installed the motor,
>>>> and he
>>>> said "it burped". My question was, "how often can I expect this baby
>>>> to
>>>> burp?" never got an answer, and it has not happened since. Obviously,
>>>> the
>>>> pressure exceeded the cap's capacity, and it worked perfectly. Another
>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump,
>>>> pump up
>>>> the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting the radiator
>>>> at
>>>> the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes for the bubbles to
>>>> rise. I
>>>> guess this will be batted around forever. I do, however, like John
>>>> Taphorn's article on cooling, and I think an oil temp gauge is
>>>> imperative,
>>>> even though I don't have one yet. I have Gary Hall's radiator and
>>>> overflow
>>>> caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 sucker-fans, etc.  and my blood
>>>> pressure is
>>>> synchronous with the water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me in an
>>>> email
>>>> that the only way his car will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a
>>>> dream
>>>> (goal).
>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
>>>>> enough
>>>>> water in the system to allow the water pump to push water into the
>>>>> block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the block and the
>>>>> thermostat neck high enough to run over into the tube going away from
>>>>> the engine no air pocket should be present in the engine. There will
>>>>> be
>>>>> two air pockets. One in the radiator, the other in the swirl tank if
>>>>> you
>>>>> have one. If no swirl tank is present, the rear air pocket will be in
>>>>> the thermostat outlet tube if the system is plumbed in a reasonably
>>>>> conventional way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is however
>>>>> a
>>>>> way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount of air. Hence
>>>>> my
>>>>> surprise when I over and over hear that it's the best way to fill the
>>>>> system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>
>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>      I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it will
>>>>> see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or parking on
>>>>> a
>>>>> slope. There is no possibility that air would be trapped in the
>>>>> straight
>>>>> under car tubes after that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And you're
>>>>> driving!
>>>>>
>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much as
>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to a
>>>>> new
>>>>> Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.  He bought his
>>>>> Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but solid Euro GTS,
>>>>> and
>>>>> only paid $13K or something like that.  One side was beat up because
>>>>> it
>>>>> had been parked in a fenced lot right against the fence, and the wind
>>>>> had whipped the fence and battered the side of the car.  But the
>>>>> damage
>>>>> was all rather trivial.
>>>>>
>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First thing
>>>>> he
>>>>> did when he got it home was to change all the fluids--water and oil.
>>>>> He
>>>>> drained all the coolant, then just filled it up and topped it off
>>>>> until
>>>>> the tank was full, on level ground.  He then closed the cap, and took
>>>>> off across the Richmond bridge, which started right outside his
>>>>> office.
>>>>>
>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to see
>>>>> how
>>>>> fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because there's no
>>>>> place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light so he just ran it up to
>>>>> redline in 5th gear.  Having a great time, eyes on the road of
>>>>> course,
>>>>> so he failed to notice that because he hadn't properly filled the
>>>>> cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>>>>
>>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>
>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn the
>>>>> importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing it
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And the
>>>>> manual
>>>>> directs you to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <P><p><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2"
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