[DeTomaso] Fwd: Re: Bleeding the cooling system

dave londry davel at emspace.com
Wed Apr 3 16:21:46 EDT 2013


Oh yes sure.
  If you were approaching the hard-to-crank level of advance it would
leave more heat behind at idle.

On 03/04/2013 12:50 PM, mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk wrote:
> AFAIK both too much and too little advance can produce more heat?
> Sendt fra min BlackBerry smartphone®
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dave londry <davel at emspace.com>
> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:47:48
> To: Mikael<mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Cc: 'Jim Gray'<grayjim at att.net>; 'detomaso at POCA.comlist'<detomaso at poca.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> I'm interested in the ignition retard.
> We're used to seeing insufficient advance as a cause for overheating at
> running speeds.
> Why is that it has the opposite effect at idle Mikael?
> dave
>
> On 03/04/2013 12:32 PM, Mikael wrote:
>> Hi Jim, some ideas...
>>
>> 1. As suggested, richen the idle and retard the ignition. Not that you want to drive it that way always, but to see effect on heating issue
>> 2. System leak free? Have you put Summit type pressure tester on, should be able to hold pressure for a few hours, engine off? Cap too?
>> 3. Can some fancy "improvement" actually be the opposite? If you changed something while fixing the blown gasket, go back to original even though counter intuitive
>> 4. You don't have  an A/C in front do you? It belongs in the back so they don't heat each other so to speak
>>
>> I have 600HP, orig cooling system except the radiator is laid down and I have puller fans instead of pusher fans. Never a cooling issue, track or traffic, one fan is manual, can't remember I ever used it. So it can be done if everything is WAD
>>
>> Don't know if this helps...
>>
>> Mikael
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
>> Sendt: 3. april 2013 15:27
>> Til: Kirby Schrader; detomaso at POCA.comlist
>> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators, changed fans, changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and *still* have problems with running too warm in the summer.
>>
>> Jim Gray
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
>> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>
>>
>> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked the car up in the back to get the air out of the system .
>> Never had a problem.
>>
>> Oh, well .
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot water?
>>>
>>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking up
>>> the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave our
>>> cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
>>>
>>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>>
>>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator,
>>> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual
>>> electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100%
>>> antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water wetter
>>> coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where the summer temps are
>>> often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
>>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would overheat
>>> would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving the engine
>>> past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in more temporate
>>> weather 170 degrees.
>>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light
>>> aircraft )  I would say the single biggest improve came as a result of
>>> having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>>
>>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth of
>>> tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides do
>>> produce a white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy waterflow
>>> if not block off entire rows.
>>>
>>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the
>>> difference for yourself.
>>>
>>> Michael Shortt
>>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in the
>>>> system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the air, and
>>>> bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water ahead of the
>>>> air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had an "explosion" in the
>>>> engine bay as I was putting down a city street. A giant white plume
>>>> of "white". I thought the engine blew. When I pulled over, lifted the
>>>> deck lid and looked, it was devoid of any oil. Must have been steam.
>>>> I called a mechanic that had worked on the car after Don Nicholson
>>>> built and installed the motor, and he said "it burped". My question
>>>> was, "how often can I expect this baby to burp?" never got an answer,
>>>> and it has not happened since. Obviously, the pressure exceeded the
>>>> cap's capacity, and it worked perfectly. Another
>>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump,
>>>> pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting the
>>>> radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes for the
>>>> bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted around forever. I do,
>>>> however, like John Taphorn's article on cooling, and I think an oil
>>>> temp gauge is imperative, even though I don't have one yet. I have
>>>> Gary Hall's radiator and overflow caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250
>>>> sucker-fans, etc.  and my blood pressure is synchronous with the
>>>> water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me in an email that the only
>>>> way his car will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a
>>>> dream (goal).
>>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>
>>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
>>>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push water
>>>>> into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the
>>>>> block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over into the tube
>>>>> going away from the engine no air pocket should be present in the
>>>>> engine. There will be two air pockets. One in the radiator, the
>>>>> other in the swirl tank if you have one. If no swirl tank is
>>>>> present, the rear air pocket will be in the thermostat outlet tube
>>>>> if the system is plumbed in a reasonably conventional way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is
>>>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount of
>>>>> air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that it's the best
>>>>> way to fill the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>
>>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>        I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it will
>>>>> see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or parking on
>>>>> a  slope. There is no possibility that air would be trapped in the
>>>>> straight  under car tubes after that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And you're
>>>>> driving!
>>>>>
>>>>> And overheating.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much as
>>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>>
>>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to a
>>>>> new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.  He
>>>>> bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but solid
>>>>> Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.  One side was
>>>>> beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot right against the
>>>>> fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and battered the side of
>>>>> the car.  But the damage was all rather trivial.
>>>>>
>>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First
>>>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the fluids--water
>>>>> and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just filled it up and
>>>>> topped it off until the tank was full, on level ground.  He then
>>>>> closed the cap, and took off across the Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>>
>>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to see
>>>>> how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because
>>>>> there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light so he just ran
>>>>> it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great time, eyes on the road
>>>>> of course, so he failed to notice that because he hadn't properly
>>>>> filled the cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>>>>
>>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>>
>>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn
>>>>> the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing it
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And the
>>>>> manual directs you to do it.
>>>>>
>>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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