[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Wed Apr 3 15:50:40 EDT 2013

AFAIK both too much and too little advance can produce more heat?
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-----Original Message-----
From: dave londry <davel at emspace.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 12:47:48 
To: Mikael<mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
Cc: 'Jim Gray'<grayjim at att.net>; 'detomaso at POCA.comlist'<detomaso at poca.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

I'm interested in the ignition retard.
We're used to seeing insufficient advance as a cause for overheating at 
running speeds.
Why is that it has the opposite effect at idle Mikael?
dave

On 03/04/2013 12:32 PM, Mikael wrote:
> Hi Jim, some ideas...
>
> 1. As suggested, richen the idle and retard the ignition. Not that you want to drive it that way always, but to see effect on heating issue
> 2. System leak free? Have you put Summit type pressure tester on, should be able to hold pressure for a few hours, engine off? Cap too?
> 3. Can some fancy "improvement" actually be the opposite? If you changed something while fixing the blown gasket, go back to original even though counter intuitive
> 4. You don't have  an A/C in front do you? It belongs in the back so they don't heat each other so to speak
>
> I have 600HP, orig cooling system except the radiator is laid down and I have puller fans instead of pusher fans. Never a cooling issue, track or traffic, one fan is manual, can't remember I ever used it. So it can be done if everything is WAD
>
> Don't know if this helps...
>
> Mikael
>
>
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Jim Gray [mailto:grayjim at att.net]
> Sendt: 3. april 2013 15:27
> Til: Kirby Schrader; detomaso at POCA.comlist
> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
> On the other hand, I have jacked mine sky-high, changed radiators, changed fans, changed thermostats (repeatedly), changed entine timing and *still* have problems with running too warm in the summer.
>
> Jim Gray
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> To: "detomaso at POCA.com list" <detomaso at poca.com>
> Sent: Tue, April 2, 2013 7:02:28 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>
>
> Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked the car up in the back to get the air out of the system .
> Never had a problem.
>
> Oh, well .
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
> On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot water?
>>
>> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking up
>> the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave our
>> cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
>>
>> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
>>
>> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator,
>> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual
>> electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100%
>> antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water wetter
>> coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where the summer temps are
>> often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
>> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would overheat
>> would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving the engine
>> past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in more temporate
>> weather 170 degrees.
>> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light
>> aircraft )  I would say the single biggest improve came as a result of
>> having the radiator cleaned/boiled.
>>
>> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth of
>> tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides do
>> produce a white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy waterflow
>> if not block off entire rows.
>>
>> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the
>> difference for yourself.
>>
>> Michael Shortt
>> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in the
>>> system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the air, and
>>> bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water ahead of the
>>> air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had an "explosion" in the
>>> engine bay as I was putting down a city street. A giant white plume
>>> of "white". I thought the engine blew. When I pulled over, lifted the
>>> deck lid and looked, it was devoid of any oil. Must have been steam.
>>> I called a mechanic that had worked on the car after Don Nicholson
>>> built and installed the motor, and he said "it burped". My question
>>> was, "how often can I expect this baby to burp?" never got an answer,
>>> and it has not happened since. Obviously, the pressure exceeded the
>>> cap's capacity, and it worked perfectly. Another
>>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump,
>>> pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting the
>>> radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes for the
>>> bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted around forever. I do,
>>> however, like John Taphorn's article on cooling, and I think an oil
>>> temp gauge is imperative, even though I don't have one yet. I have
>>> Gary Hall's radiator and overflow caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250
>>> sucker-fans, etc.  and my blood pressure is synchronous with the
>>> water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me in an email that the only
>>> way his car will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a
>>> dream (goal).
>>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mike,
>>>>
>>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's
>>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push water
>>>> into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the
>>>> block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over into the tube
>>>> going away from the engine no air pocket should be present in the
>>>> engine. There will be two air pockets. One in the radiator, the
>>>> other in the swirl tank if you have one. If no swirl tank is
>>>> present, the rear air pocket will be in the thermostat outlet tube
>>>> if the system is plumbed in a reasonably conventional way.
>>>>
>>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is
>>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount of
>>>> air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that it's the best
>>>> way to fill the system.
>>>>
>>>> Tomas
>>>>
>>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>>> To: guson at home.se
>>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>       I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it will
>>>> see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or parking on
>>>> a  slope. There is no possibility that air would be trapped in the
>>>> straight  under car tubes after that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And you're
>>>> driving!
>>>>
>>>> And overheating.
>>>>
>>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much as
>>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>>>
>>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to a
>>>> new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.  He
>>>> bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but solid
>>>> Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.  One side was
>>>> beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot right against the
>>>> fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and battered the side of
>>>> the car.  But the damage was all rather trivial.
>>>>
>>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First
>>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the fluids--water
>>>> and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just filled it up and
>>>> topped it off until the tank was full, on level ground.  He then
>>>> closed the cap, and took off across the Richmond bridge, which started right outside his office.
>>>>
>>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to see
>>>> how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because
>>>> there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light so he just ran
>>>> it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great time, eyes on the road
>>>> of course, so he failed to notice that because he hadn't properly
>>>> filled the cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>>>
>>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>>>
>>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn
>>>> the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing it
>>>>>>> has
>>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And the
>>>> manual directs you to do it.
>>>>
>>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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