[DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Tue Apr 2 21:56:29 EDT 2013

Dear Kirby,

                   I just read a book about the Spanish Inquisition.  They
had a word for people like you: Heretic!

                   Seriously, though, I believe you.  Since I started
putting bleeder valve in the upper corner on the rear of the cylinder heads,
I simply fill the system.  Start the car.  Open the bleeders. As the engine
and coolant and trapped air warm up, the bleeders vent steam and then water.
Procedure over.  It has been much simpler than the standard procedure, but
not as simple as your heretical method. :-)

                    It sounds like a case for Mythbusters.

                        Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition,  Chuck
Engles

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at poca.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at poca.com] On Behalf
Of Kirby Schrader
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2013 7:02 PM
To: detomaso at POCA.com list
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system

Since owning a Pantera the first time in 1983, I have never jacked the car
up in the back to get the air out of the system
.
Never had a problem.

Oh, well
.

FWIW,
Kirby

On Apr 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, michael at michaelshortt.com
<michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:

> WTF?  Does anybody think a "cold air" bubbble would sink in hot water?
> 
> There is only one proven way to get the air out the system, jacking up 
> the rear.  It is this very procedure or lack thereof that gave our 
> cars an overheating reputation that we still fight to this day.
> 
> There is no need to reinvent this procedure.
> 
> I have a 393 stroker with a Hall 5 core lay forward brass radiator, 
> siliconce hoses and aluminum and stainless hard pipes with a dual 
> electric fan on the back side of the radiator. I run a 1/3 100% 
> antifreeze and 2/3 distiled water with one 16oz bottle of water wetter 
> coolant mix.  I live in Savannah, Georgia where the summer temps are 
> often 95-100 degrees with 90% humidity.
> After proper filling and bleeding, the only way my car would overheat 
> would be to disconnect the fan and sit stil while reving the engine 
> past 3,000 rpms.  It is all I can do to hit 180 and in more temporate 
> weather 170 degrees.
> Aside from my coolant mix ( which is the same ratio used for light 
> aircraft
> )  I would say the single biggest improve came as a result of having 
> the radiator cleaned/boiled.
> 
> I would encourage you to have your radiator cleaned, 40 years worth of 
> tap water with city additives like lime, calcium and flourides do 
> produce a white build up which can retrict smooth and speedy waterflow 
> if not block off entire rows.
> 
> Then use a proper mix, bleed it as described and witness the 
> difference for yourself.
> 
> Michael Shortt
> On Apr 2, 2013 5:31 PM, "Jack Donahue" <demongusta at me.com> wrote:
> 
>> Something to think about: Warm air rises, so I would think air in the 
>> system would have a tendency to RISE. With the rear in the air, and 
>> bleeding the radiator, aren't we "pushing" the water ahead of the 
>> air? Why not raise the front? Years ago I had an "explosion" in the 
>> engine bay as I was putting down a city street. A giant white plume 
>> of "white". I thought the engine blew. When I pulled over, lifted the 
>> deck lid and looked, it was devoid of any oil. Must have been steam. 
>> I called a mechanic that had worked on the car after Don Nicholson 
>> built and installed the motor, and he said "it burped". My question 
>> was, "how often can I expect this baby to burp?" never got an answer, 
>> and it has not happened since. Obviously, the pressure exceeded the 
>> cap's capacity, and it worked perfectly. Another
>> thing: why not use a STANT (or a similar one) cooling system pump, 
>> pump up the system, and then raise the front of the car, putting the 
>> radiator at the high point, and maybe waiting a few minutes for the 
>> bubbles to rise. I guess this will be batted around forever. I do, 
>> however, like John Taphorn's article on cooling, and I think an oil 
>> temp gauge is imperative, even though I don't have one yet. I have 
>> Gary Hall's radiator and overflow caps, Fluidyne, SS tubes, 1250 
>> sucker-fans, etc.  and my blood pressure is synchronous with the 
>> water temp gauge. Kirby Schrader told me in an email that the only 
>> way his car will overheat in 100 degree weather (at an
>> intersection) is to shut of one of the cooling fans.Sounds like a 
>> dream (goal).
>> On Apr 1, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson wrote:
>> 
>>> Mike,
>>> 
>>> Air will not collect like that in the engine as long as there's 
>>> enough water in the system to allow the water pump to push water 
>>> into the block. As long as the pump has water supply to fill the 
>>> block and the thermostat neck high enough to run over into the tube 
>>> going away from the engine no air pocket should be present in the 
>>> engine. There will be two air pockets. One in the radiator, the 
>>> other in the swirl tank if you have one. If no swirl tank is 
>>> present, the rear air pocket will be in the thermostat outlet tube 
>>> if the system is plumbed in a reasonably conventional way.
>>> 
>>> Filling an empty system with the rear of the car jacked up is 
>>> however a way to ensure that the engine contains a certain amount of 
>>> air. Hence my surprise when I over and over hear that it's the best 
>>> way to fill the system.
>>> 
>>> Tomas
>>> 
>>> <-----Ursprungligt Meddelande----->
>>> From: MikeLDrew at aol.com [MikeLDrew at aol.com]
>>> Sent: 2/4/2013 1:34:54 AM
>>> To: guson at home.se
>>> Cc: detomaso at poca.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Bleeding the cooling system
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In a message dated 4/1/13 13 39 2, guson at home.se writes:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>      I beg to differ. As soon as you start driving the car it will 
>>> see G-forces much greater than those induced by jacking or parking 
>>> on a slope. There is no possibility that air would be trapped in the 
>>> straight under car tubes after that.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>> No.  Instead, the air that WAS trapped in the pipes before you
>>> started driving, will now be trapped in your engine!  And you're 
>>> driving!
>>> 
>>> And overheating.
>>> 
>>> The point of the exercise is to purge the system of air (as much as
>>> possible) *before* you start driving it.
>>> 
>>> There was a significant incident that happened many years ago to a 
>>> new Pantera owner here in PCNC land, named Walter Villere.  He 
>>> bought his Pantera from a police auction, a rather scruffy but solid 
>>> Euro GTS, and only paid $13K or something like that.  One side was 
>>> beat up because it had been parked in a fenced lot right against the 
>>> fence, and the wind had whipped the fence and battered the side of 
>>> the car.  But the damage was all rather trivial.
>>> 
>>> Walter knew a lot about cars and nothing about Panteras.  First 
>>> thing he did when he got it home was to change all the fluids--water 
>>> and oil.  He drained all the coolant, then just filled it up and 
>>> topped it off until the tank was full, on level ground.  He then 
>>> closed the cap, and took off across the Richmond bridge, which started
right outside his office.
>>> 
>>> Walter was/is a maniac.  Great guy, but a maniac.  He wanted to see 
>>> how fast it would go, and the bridge is a great place because 
>>> there's no place for cops to hide.  Traffic was light so he just ran 
>>> it up to redline in 5th gear.  Having a great time, eyes on the road 
>>> of course, so he failed to notice that because he hadn't properly 
>>> filled the cooling system, the temp gauge was pegged.
>>> 
>>> BOOM!!!!!!  The engine let go like Krakatoa!
>>> 
>>> Only AFTER that, and a new engine from Hall Pantera, did he learn 
>>> the importance of the proper filling/bleeding procedure....
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I agree that you want to bleed the radiator and top up at the
>>> rear filler but the jacking is a waste of time.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>>> It doesn't cost anything, doesn't hurt anything, and not doing it 
>>>>>> has
>>> led to at least minor overheating problems in the past.  And the 
>>> manual directs you to do it.
>>> 
>>> So why WOULDN'T you do it?
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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