[DeTomaso] Meziere water pumps

Julian Kift julian_kift at hotmail.com
Mon Jan 16 13:28:35 EST 2012 

Pantera's typically overheat in traffic at low rpm, where a conventional water pump is rotating at low or idle rpm and thus low flow as pump speed is proportional to engine rpm. An electric pump can run at full flow at any engine rpm or any pump speed independent of engien rpm with a controller. The ability of the radiator as a heat exchange unit and to disspate heat is not usually a constraint (assuming you have god fans as well) so pumping more through it will absolutely reduce coolant temperature.
 
I have electric water pumps on both the Ultima and GT40 and will go that route on my '74 pantera rebuild. It doesn't need to be Cleveland specific because ideally you want a remote pump (rather than block mount), so the application isn't that much different. I use the 55gpm remote mount Meziere pumps and you can get them as single or double outlet (if you want a separate heater circuit) or radiator mount. The Meziere guy I spoke to recommended the remote pump be mounted in the engine bay on a Pantera as they are really a suction pump.
 
What I did on the GT40 is simply remove the impeller and guts of the old water pump (easy if you have a Ford Racing water pump as the impeller just falls off most of the time ;>)) and welded up the impeller shaft hole creating a plenum. No complex rerouting of hoses etc. or replumbing incorporating the heater circuit connections. The removal of the water pump pulley on the GT40 was enough to allow me to move to a flat firewall as well.
 
Dave Londry sent me one of his PWM PowerOne controllers to try and at this point I have to apologize to him once again as the GT40 project has taken a back seat for way too long, so he hasn't gotten any feedback yet.
 
Heres a link to his website http://www.emspace.com/
 
There was a question on pumping in parallel vs. series and pumping in paralllel will double flow rate. Series pumping (booster pumps) will also increase flow rate. To what extent flow rate increase is dependent on the origianl pump charatceristics (curves) and the feed head pressure, but can be significant. More often in practice though series pumping is acheived by a self contained two stage pump.
 
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pumps-parallel-serial-d_636.html
 
I mention this as one option is to install an electric pump in line (series) acting as a booster pump along with the std belt driven water pump.
 
Julian
  

> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 21:42:07 -0800
> From: kenn_green at yahoo.com
> To: Bill at incendium.com; michael at michaelshortt.com
> CC: asajay at asajay.com; detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Meziere water pumps
> 
> The advantages are probably more coolant flow at low RPM and less parasitic drag at high RPM.  The disadvantage is less flow at high RPM if you need the increased flow.
>  
> Ken
> 
> From: Bill Moore <Bill at incendium.com>
> To: michael at michaelshortt.com 
> Cc: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>; "detomaso at realbig.com" <detomaso at realbig.com>; Bill Moore <bill at incendium.com> 
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 7:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Meziere water pumps
> 
> I agree, what's the upside to an electrical W/P, if it provides the required coolant flow ? 
> 
> 
> Regards:
> Bill Moore
> Incendium Supply Ltd
> Suite 416, 305-4625 Varsity Dr NW
> Calgary, Alberta
> T3A 0Z9
> 
> 403 202 0055
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:26:25 
> To: <michael at michaelshortt.com>
> Reply-To: michael at michaelshortt.com
> Cc: Ken Green<kenn_green at yahoo.com>; detomaso at realbig.com<detomaso at realbig.com>; Asa Jay Laughton<asajay at asajay.com>; <Bill at incendium.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Meziere water pumps
> 
> I personally wouldn't use one, I've had far more electrical malfunctions
> (battery, alternator, etc) than I have had waterpump failures or belts
> breaking.
> 
> Michael
> On Jan 15, 2012 10:23 PM, "michael at michaelshortt.com" <
> michaelsavga at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Right you are, I stand corrected.
> >
> > MICHAEL
> > On Jan 15, 2012 10:21 PM, "Bill Moore" <Bill at incendium.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael, Ken did say Parallel not series. However the size of coolant
> >> lines, diameter and length also enter into the equation.
> >>
> >>
> >> Regards:
> >> Bill Moore
> >> Incendium Supply Ltd
> >> Suite 416, 305-4625 Varsity Dr NW
> >> Calgary, Alberta
> >> T3A 0Z9
> >>
> >> 403 202 0055
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From:  "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
> >> Sender: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> >> Date:  Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:14:15
> >> To: Ken Green<kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> >> Reply-To: michael at michaelshortt.com
> >> Cc: Asa Jay Laughton<asajay at asajay.com>; detomaso at realbig.com<
> >> detomaso at realbig.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Meziere water pumps
> >>
> >> I am not an engineer nor do I have any training in fluid dynamics, but I
> >> don't see how running two in a series will move any additional coolant,
> >> maybe in parallel.  Somebody educate me
> >>
> >> MICHAEL
> >> On Jan 15, 2012 10:10 PM, "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Asa,
> >> >
> >> >    I have  Meziere WP311B which is rated at 55 GPM with no load.  I
> >> don't
> >> > think they make a Cleveland specific pump, but they make a back plate PN
> >> > WP123B.  The original recirculation passage is covered, so you need to
> >> do
> >> > something different for warm up.  Maybe a PWM controller (talk to Dave
> >> > Londry about that).
> >> >
> >> >    The folks at Meziere told me that the pump actually pumps about 33
> >> GPM
> >> > in a car, and that's about what a really good mechanical pump does at
> >> 3,500
> >> > RPM.  So it's better than a good mechanical pump below 3,500, and pumps
> >> > less above 3,500, so it's not the hot setup if you want to run an open
> >> road
> >> > race at 5,000 RPM, but you can run two remote pumps in parallel and move
> >> > plenty of coolant.
> >> >
> >> >    They have a great reputation and should be very good for anything
> >> less
> >> > than sustained high RPM.
> >> >
> >> > Ken
> >> >
> >> > From: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
> >> > To: detomaso at realbig.com
> >> > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 3:29 PM
> >> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Meziere water pumps
> >> >
> >> > Anyone on this list installed a remote Meziere electric water pump with
> >> > their Ford 351C?
> >> > http://www.meziere.com
> >> > If so, what parts, part numbers did you use and how did you go about it?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Asa Jay
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> >> > &  Shelley Marie
> >> > Spokane, WA
> >> > ******************************
> >> > http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> >> > http://www.teampanteraracing.com
> >> > http://facebook.com/racingagainstautism
> >> >
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