[DeTomaso] This ought to be fun...

Tue Apr 17 15:41:54 EDT 2012

Corey,

Thanks for the pics.
Yes, it should be easy enough, but these were way off. Tried them myself
and then got the machinist's opinion.
We both reached the same conclusion.

I hope the ones I got from Will are better/closer.

Otherwise, I can sure spend more money on the Bessel caps like Dan is
suggesting!
I sure hate to give up on the block... putting those bushings in the lifter
bores is not a cheap thing...

I have another block, but......

FWIW,
Kirby

On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 14:37, Corey Price <coreyjprice at gmail.com> wrote:

> Kirby,
>
> FWIW, my block was converted to four-bolt mains with very little line
> honing required.  It surprised the machinist to be that close first try
> with four-bolt caps.
>
> See it here:
>
>
> http://pantera1998.blogspot.com/2012/01/four-bolt-mains-and-paint-update.html
>
> Corey
>
>
> On Apr 17, 2012, at 12:47 PM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Dan,
> >
> > See below.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 13:15, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >>> 1) Two bolt main iron block
> >>
> >> Still a 2 bolt main block?  With a solid roller cam and the way you use
> it,
> >> it should be converted to 4 bolt mains.  Is there any evidence of cap
> walk?
> >> I'd be installing something like the Bessel main caps if I were you.
> >>
> >
> > Yes, it's still a 2 bolt block. That's all I've ever used... and never
> had
> > a problem.
> > Previous engine was routinely revved to 7200rpm and an occasional 7500...
> > It lasted for 26,000 miles before I ran it lean and fried a piston. All
> my
> > fault... fully to blame.
> >
> > I have a set of 4 bolt caps and had planned to use them, but the register
> > was way off.
> > Will gave me a set of 4 bolt caps, too. I dropped them off yesterday and
> > I'm waiting to see if he says they will fit or not.
> >
> > I need enlightenment... How do I see if there is cap walk? They all fit
> > tight into the block.
> > I will look into the Bessel main caps.
> >
> >
> >>> 12) The machinist thinks he can salvage the block with another line
> bore.
> >>
> >> Another line bore?  Each time you weaken the caps and move the crank
> closer
> >> to the cam.
> >>
> > Yes, sir. I'm aware of that.
> >
> >>
> >>> nodular iron crankshaft from Quella
> >>
> >> Is this still an offset ground 351C crank?
> >
> > Yes, it's what I've been using for years. This was a new one.
> >
> >> Was it crack tested?
> >>
> > No, it was not. I can have him do that. Good point.
> >
> >>
> >>> 6) I pulled the pan and found bearing material.
> >>
> >> For future refence, you can just cut the filter open to look for bearing
> >> material.  Had to do that recently on my sister's Isuzu which spun a
> >> bearing
> >> (towed it from Cincy to St. Louis so I could rebuild it only to find the
> >> frame is terminally rusted).
> >>
> >
> > I did not mention that, but I did cut the filter open first. There was
> > bearing material and a little brass shiny stuff which I assumed was from
> > the distributor gear. The bearing material was what led me to pull the
> pan.
> >
> >>
> >>> 8) All the other rod bearings and main bearings look just fine.
> >>> 9) The front one had not only spun (when I pulled the cap, both had
> >> rotated
> >>> by about 40 degrees), but one half was actually partially canted out of
> >> the
> >>> web towards the front of the engine. I have pictures if you're
> desperate.
> >>
> >> How tight is the main cap?  They should be interference fit.  When
> >> they start to walk, they can loosen up.
> >>
> > They were all interference fit. I am using ARP studs for the main caps.
> > Based on your statement, if they are 'walking', I should see some shiny
> > places where it has moved?
> > I should note here that I had not tracked the car nor had I really
> hammered
> > it much. I went to 7000 maybe 5-6 times during the tuning process. The
> > engine was hardly used in my mind. I was getting the EFI tuned in.
> >
> >>
> >>> 13) The crankshaft journal needs turning, obviously, and can be saved.
> >>
> >> Have it magnafluxed for cracks.
> >>
> > I will do so.
> >
> >>
> >>> 15) I had an Accusump plumbed into the back of the block where the
> stock
> >>> oil sender usually resides. Accusump was set at 30psi.
> >>
> >> I wonder if something caused the bearing clearance to change (loose cap,
> >> cracked crank, etc.) or a piece of debris in the oil passage leading to
> >> the front main and the Accusump saved the back bearings?
> >>
> > Possible.... When I pulled the main and rod caps, they were all tight
> > though.
> >
> >>
> >> The downside to restrictors is the small passages are very easy to clog
> >> with a bit of metal or RTV.  That's why Ford made them so large in the
> >> first place (so they'd still flow even when people never change their
> >> oil).
> >>
> >
> > I will check the passages and make sure the restrictors are not plugged.
> I
> > need to confirm, but I don't think he put the restrictor in the front
> > bearing.... been awhile since we talked about that and I don't remember
> > seeing it when I pulled the engine and was examining things.
> >
> > I will check.
> >
> > Thanks very much for your feedback.
> > At least I have some more things to check.
> >
> > Kirby
> >
> >
> >> Dan Jones
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 17, 2012 at 10:40 AM, Kirby Schrader
> >> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Personally recovering from major depression and lack of motivation on
> the
> >>> Pantera front in Magnolia...
> >>>
> >>> The Space City guys already know about this and we've discussed it a
> lot,
> >>> but for some reason, I'm in the mood to throw it out to the rest of the
> >>> collective.
> >>>
> >>> My new 377 Cleveland engine build with less than 400 miles on it spun
> the
> >>> front main bearing.
> >>> I have never seen this happen, ever... and I've run the same
> combination
> >> of
> >>> block, crankshaft, rods, etc. for years and beat the crap out of it
> with
> >> no
> >>> problems.
> >>> Daily driver, track events, etc.
> >>>
> >>> Facts for your consideration follow. I can get more detailed, but I
> think
> >>> the following is enough to start you thinking.
> >>>
> >>> 1) Two bolt main iron block, lifter bores bushed, line bored, J&E
> >> pistons,
> >>> Eagle rods, nodular iron crankshaft from Quella, Moroso restrictors (I
> >>> spent a lot of money on this block!)
> >>> 2) Iron 4V heads, new valves, springs, etc. etc. etc.
> >>> 3) Comp Cams solid roller cam, lifters, pushrods, rockers
> >>> 4) Symptoms were that my oil pressure started dropping gradually when I
> >> was
> >>> driving home from the annual SCP pig roast. By the time I got to the
> last
> >>> stoplight before my house, I was down to 10 psi hot at idle. Oil
> pressure
> >>> is taken from the port just above the filter. You know it was less at
> the
> >>> back of the engine.
> >>> 5) There were no knocking, banging or otherwise nasty noises. Main
> >> bearing
> >>> problems make distinctive noises. I know. Been there, done that. Got
> the
> >>> scars. But I did not hear anything this time.
> >>> 6) I pulled the pan and found bearing material.
> >>> 7) Pulled the oil pump and it had obviously done some trash pumping.
> >>> 8) All the other rod bearings and main bearings look just fine.
> >>> 9) The front one had not only spun (when I pulled the cap, both had
> >> rotated
> >>> by about 40 degrees), but one half was actually partially canted out of
> >> the
> >>> web towards the front of the engine. I have pictures if you're
> desperate.
> >>> 10) Nothing is blue or shows signs of getting hot.
> >>> 11) The main cap is worn badly and has to be replaced.
> >>> 12) The machinist thinks he can salvage the block with another line
> >> bore. I
> >>> hope so...
> >>> 13) The crankshaft journal needs turning, obviously, and can be saved.
> >>> 14) The machine shop put the short block together, I assembled the rest
> >>> 15) I had an Accusump plumbed into the back of the block where the
> stock
> >>> oil sender usually resides. Accusump was set at 30psi.
> >>>
> >>> Proposed failure modes
> >>> a) The main bearing was put in upside down - The machine shop is
> adamant
> >>> that is not the case. 'Hell, no! No way!' was the response to that
> one...
> >>> b) The crankshaft is bent - He's checking this week, but that would
> have
> >>> been very apparent during assembly, so he believes strongly this is not
> >> the
> >>> case.
> >>> c) Not enough oil pressure - On start up and later, 65psi hot at rpm,
> >> 30psi
> >>> hot at idle.
> >>> d) It ran fine while I was tuning the EFI. Other than running rich
> >>> initially and some issues with the ECU, I had no problems.
> >>>
> >>> Fortunately, no other damage occurred.
> >>>
> >>> So..... my questions....
> >>>
> >>> Why did it fail?
> >>> What do I do to make sure it doesn't happen again?
> >>> Why me?
> >>>
> >>> Who am I and why am I here?
> >>> :-)
> >>>
> >>> Let the fun begin.
> >>> Regards,
> >>> Kirby
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