[DeTomaso] unions?

[Dick Koch]

  In one of my bi-weekly visits to the forum to find out the latest and 
greatest that is going in the Pantera community, I wind up getting an 
earful of political blather that one would expect to see on some blog.

Well, I think most folks will say enough is enough with this banter 
about unions, government, politics, and the general conversation that 
has nothing to do with Panteras, cars, and related subjects.

The only result of this discussion is to show which side of the fence 
one is on.  This discussion will not change anybody's political views.  
However, it certainly shows how naive and gullible some folks are as it 
relates to how the world turns.

Dick Koch - Atlanta

On 10/31/2011 5:49 PM, doug sedon wrote:
> first of all, the clintons are
> republicans dressed as donkeys.  they got their republican economics
> packages passed w/the help of republican congresses.  and the bottom
> fell out of the economy in september/october - a bit before anyone knew
> who was gonna be prez.  mccain made an a$$ of himself during the initial start of the crisis.  good economy we had under bush?!?  good, maybe
> for the few percent at the tom of the income ladder.  sucky for everyone else.  two unfunded wars and the bush tax cuts on top of
> banking/finance deregulation ensured the market collapse.  the largest deficit spending in history up to that point...
>
>
> the "stimulus" spending is a drop in the bucket in the debt that has recently been accumulated.  and, it has been used to start to shore up our infrastructure, and to keep unemployment from being a lot worse than it is today.  our infrastructure is literally falling apart at the seams.  how are we going to fix it w/more tax cuts, and more deregulation?  and tax cuts&  deregulation are what got us into this mess - how is more of it gonna help fix things?  :>/ and expanded govt? are you kidding?  gwb w/his patriot act (oxymoron!) and dhs (another oxymoron!) have expanded the govt more than anyone!  and let's not forget his no child's behind left unscathed act, which mandated programs for the states and no money to fund them.  or the prescription drug act which was a gimme to the insurance and drug companies.
>
>
> i love how you attempt to distort what really went down.  :>/
>
> doug s.,
> #2602
> btw, hillary or not, walmart would be a second-rate biz today if it didn't make everything in china.  personally, i do not remember walmart pushing made in usa; but then again, i am and have always been afraid to go inside a walmart...
>
>
>
>
>> ________________________________
>> From: GW<gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>> To: Ken Green<kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: doug sedon<sedond at yahoo.com>; "michael at michaelshortt.com"<michael at michaelshortt.com>; de tomaso digest<detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions?
>>
>> It is nearly impossible to see where the unions stop and our government starts.
>>
>> We all know the democrat housing bubble crashed this economy. Several tried to stop it including Bush who tried 13x and brought it to a vote 2x which was slapped down by the dems. But when did the bubble burst? When Obama was seen as the obvious victor to the elections, stockholders began draining the market. Their not dumb. They saw what was coming and it became a game of who can get their money out fast before the markets drop. The good economy we had under Bush was gone!
>>
>> There was a week where McCain gained momentum. If you look at that week the market began to recover. As the excitement for McCain dropped and obama became the obvious winner, the markets went into a nose dive.
>>
>> Do you remember a time when Walmart pushed "Made in the USA"? Do you remember when it stopped? It stopped when Hillary Clinton got on Walmarts board of directors. She set Walmart up with Chinese vendors and changed the direction of Walmart and stopped the "Made in the USA" campaign.
>>
>> When Hillary was campaigning it was found one of her major backers were the Chinese. When Hillary became secretary of state what was the first thing she did? Hillary went to China to secure loans for the bail outs...aka government expansion and union pensions. You can still see the videos of Hillary in China. Hillary stood up at several meetings in China and said "We are reseting relations" (A childish dig at Bush she kept repeating at the time; remember the reset button she carried around) She continued to say "We are no longer interested in your human rights issues, we are just interested in securing funds for bail outs!"
>>
>> The liberals understand spending in the past has pulled bad economies up. When they don't understand is what spending. During WWII much industry was working for the government. The government pumped a huge amount of money into the country for the war. When the war was over, industry had to re-start for post war production but industry (corporations) had money because of war funding. What happened next? We had an economic boom!!!
>>
>> In the 50's Eisenhower nearly bankrupting this country building highways. But what did the money do? It went to corporations building infrastructure but more importantly, it opened a door to commerce this country never had. The highways opened the doors for companies nationwide to do business like they never had before. This created the boom called the Roaring 50's!
>>
>> It is common knowledge that wars (no there is no real comparison of the Iraq conflict to a real war) and infrastructure expansion such as highways both increase our national debt substantially but also kick start the economy.
>>
>> The liberals see that and think spending money kick starts the economy but look at what the liberals have done over the last few years? Expanded government and shored up the union base. Much of the expanded government went to states which not only expanded the state government but required that when the stimulus money ran out in a year or two the states would have to continue the funding!!! It is really a sly move. The government spends a one time check to make your state government larger and then expects the states to keep it larger when the government money runs out. Expansion of government shifting the cost. Now the stimulous 2 obama is touting it trying to shore up the states and unions longer so the states don't drop the funding.
>>
>> The spending from WWII and from the highway system launched some of the best economies this country ahs ever had. What did the stimulus spending do? Shored up unions, expanded government, and stopped this economy in it';s tracks. Instead of helping people and corporations create jobs, it expected the corporations and and those who create jobs to pay more of their fair share.
>>
>> In effect the stimulus not only burned a buttload of cash for no good reason but it brought this economy to it's knees. Now we have debt our children and grand children will never able to pay. There is no way we can inflate our way out of what was spent this time around!!
>>
>> There is little if any discernible difference between unions and a liberal government.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ken Green wrote:
>>> Doug,
>>>            The auto workers scored billions in the government bailout of GM, and scored again on getting out of Nationalized Health care (AKA Obamacare).  Tenured union teachers get to keep their jobs unless they kill or rape a student.  It sounds like the government has sold out to the unions more than to corporations.  AND, Wall Street folks gave more to dems than to reps.           But I think the problem is BIG government, regardless of who is in the White House.  When the government spends money, the middle class gets screwed.
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: doug sedon<sedond at yahoo.com>
>>> To: "michael at michaelshortt.com"<michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>> Cc: de tomaso digest<detomaso at realbig.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions? (was: Re: Something to shoot for (NPC))
>>>
>>> michael sez:
>>> 1. Unions were once upon a time a good thing, I think that time has passed.
>>> doug s. sez:
>>> - unfortunately, cuz government has sold out to the corporations - aiding and abetting their goals in item #'s 2&  3 below, not regulating them for the benefit of all society - unions are one of the few tools left.
>>>
>>>
>>> michael sez:
>>> 2. Corporations exist to create wealth for shareholders.  It is management's sole duty to maximize profits, however they are not required to be good citizens or have any loyalty to our country. I feel this is a fundamental flaw and should be of prime consideration to those who invest personally and on behalf of others with pension funds, 401ks, etc.  3. Management should be compensated based on real profits, not valuations, or other means of manipulating numbers to look like income.  REAL MONEY.  I like a formula that is open for all to see.
>>> doug s. sez:
>>> - i agree w/the above items 2&  3.  and i am ok w/it, too.  as long as there's something to keep them reined in.  the govt used to do it, but that's been effectively eliminated over the past 30 years.  now the govt is in the corporations' pockets; and there's no one left to control them...  :>/  certainly most of those who inwest are not gonna do it, or are ewen capable of doing it if they wanted to.  management, for the most part compensates itself totally unregulated - it's an incestuous little club, w/everyone sitting on everyone else's executive boards, scratching each other's backs, paying each other ludicrous amounts of money, and paying them even more when they get fired and are losing money.
>>>
>>>
>>> michael sez:
>>> 4. Union workers in many cases need a reality check.  There are dudes who work for GM who make $65.00 an hour to clean The bathroom because they have been doing it for 20 years.  WISE TF UP. A job has a value, period.  Just because you're too stupid, dumb or lazy to do anything else doesn't mean that your job is a career.  Either cross train, get an education or move on.   Just because you're still there doesn't make the original 15.00 an hour job any more valuable.
>>> doug s. sez:
>>> - of course no one should be making $65 an hour to clean the bathroom.  and, seriously, i don't think this is really what's happening.  i am sure there are a small minority of union folks at gm who are overpaid for what they do.  but, that's not the problem.  for the most part, unions simply help their members keep up w/inflation...  and i certainly believe that they would not be needed so much - if the government were able to better regulate corporations.
>>>
>>> of course any corporation will off-shore its work if it is allowed to have children work in sweat shops, allowed to have unsafe workplaces w/no health ins, no overtime, pay its workers $100/month instead of $100/day, no workmen's comp, no unemployment ins or social security, let miners breathe coal dust, etc etc, etc.  if the federal government does not put a stop to it, who will?!?  or do you think american workers should simply agree to accept these same working conditions here?  then we can be "competitive"!  yippee!  we can go back to the late 1800's!  yippee!  give the corporations more power, less regulation!  yippee!  you know, when the unions gained some power to help the workers?  we could go full circle!  :>/
>>>
>>>
>>> unfortunately, i see wery little in the govt to turn things around.  initially, barack talked a good game, so much so that the oligarchs started calling him a communist or a socialist.  many of his "conservative" detractors still do.  i wish!?!  he's sold out to big biz in a huge way - the banks, wall street, the insurance companies, the oil companies, the drug mfr's...  and his "opposition"?  all they want is to deregulate the corporations even more!?!  ya, it's all this "regulation" that caused the economic meltdown!?!  let the corporations have more power, less regulation, cut taxes even more!  ya, let's put out the fire w/gasoline!?!  :>/
>>>
>>>
>>> ymmv,
>>>
>>> doug s.,
>>> #2602
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com"<michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>> To: doug sedon<sedond at yahoo.com>
>>>> Cc: "detomaso at realbig.com"<detomaso at realbig.com>; "gow2 at rc-tech.net"<gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:22 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions? (was: Re: Something to shoot for (NPC))
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doug, To be honest, I'm unsure of your position on the viability of unions.
>>>> Let me be clear about my views.
>>>> 1. Unions were once upon a time a good thing, I think that time has passed.
>>>> 2. Corporations exist to create wealth for shareholders.  It is management's sole duty to maximize profits, however they are not required to be good citizens or have any loyalty to our country. I feel this is a fundamental flaw and should be of prime consideration to those who invest personally and on behalf of others with pension funds, 401ks, etc.  3. Management should be compensated based on real profits, not valuations, or other means of manipulating numbers to look like income.  REAL MONEY.  I like a formula that is open for all to see.
>>>> 4. Union workers in many cases need a reality check.  There are dudes who work for GM who make $65.00 an hour to clean The bathroom because they have been doing it for 20 years.  WISE TF UP. A job has a value, period.  Just because you're too stupid, dumb or lazy to do anything else doesn't mean that your job is a career.  Either cross train, get an education or move on.   Just because you're still there doesn't make the original 15.00 an hour job any more valuable.
>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>
>>>>
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