[DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection

Kirby Schrader kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Fri Oct 7 07:36:04 EDT 2011 

That is correct.

So much for my 'theory'. You just shot it full of holes.
:-)


On Oct 6, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Julian Kift wrote:

> Kirby,
> 
> Plug is marked on mine and orange is pin 'C'.
> 
> Julian
> 
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> From: kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:00:20 -0500
> CC: dmaument at comcast.net; detomaso at realbig.com
> To: julian_kift at hotmail.com
> 
> 
> Check the plug that goes to the MAP sensor.
> 
> Is the orange wire on pin A or pin C? Orange is 5VDC, black is GND, the middle wire (usually dark green) is the signal.
> 
> The plug is not marked on mine... you have to look at the sensor itself.
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2011, at 7:08 PM, Julian Kift wrote:
> 
> I have a F9 and harness here in a box (at some point to be used with a TWM IR setup on my GT40), what wire is connected to which pin to confirm your theory?
> 
> Julian
> 
> > From: kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 17:45:57 -0500
> > To: dmaument at comcast.net
> > CC: detomaso at realbig.com
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > 
> > 
> > And is your MAP sensor wired backwards?
> > :-)
> > 
> > You're using TPS only, right?
> > (Man, it's been few years, huh?)
> > 
> > On Oct 6, 2011, at 5:44 PM, Dave Aument wrote:
> > 
> > > interesting read ... my F9 still has all the smoke in it. Dave
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Oct 6, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
> > > 
> > >> Which allows me to segue into a.... Carb Man strikes again! (in honor of
> > >> Bill Lewis)
> > >> 
> > >> As Mikael stated, sometimes it's the stupid stuff. And, never one to shirk
> > >> from showing how stupid things and my stupidity can work together, here's a
> > >> story that resolved itself last night.
> > >> 
> > >> KInda' long, so delete if you're bored with all this EFI stuff.
> > >> 
> > >> Background
> > >> As many of you know, I installed a Haltech F9a IR EFI system on my 377
> > >> Cleveland Pantera way back in 2000 and have been completely happy with it.
> > >> Yes, Roland. I considered it 100%.
> > >> :-)
> > >> 
> > >> It was a complete system that Dennis Quella used to sell back then. It came
> > >> with a factory built harness, fuel pump, filter, hoses and all the goodies
> > >> to install it. Even instructions and a start up map! It took me about a week
> > >> to install.
> > >> 
> > >> Now, remember that statement above... 'factory built harness'.
> > >> 
> > >> Yes, the system was a fuel only ECU and I still used a distributor. Yes, it
> > >> took me awhile to learn how to tune it (it was my first attempt at EFI), but
> > >> after doing a 'seat of the pants' tuning for quite awhile driving to work
> > >> and back, I was happy. But, after nagging from all and sundry, I took it to
> > >> a dyno because I 'really should do that'. We couldn't get anything more out
> > >> of it. I was happy with my tuning, needless to say. I wrote up my experience
> > >> with the installation back then and posted it here on this list.
> > >> 
> > >> Fast forward. I built a new engine for the car (long story why, but not
> > >> relevant). Cast iron Cleveland, 4V heads, same EFI, etc. etc. The only thing
> > >> I changed was the cam. A Comp Cams solid roller. Desktop Dyno says it'll do
> > >> 560HP. Driving it what little I have so far, I'd believe it. My Pantera has
> > >> never been like this!
> > >> (Also slightly embarrassing... I have a GT40 that dyno'd at 540HP with
> > >> 427ci. A 'little old 377 Cleveland' does more? Time for a new cam in the
> > >> GT40, it seems.)
> > >> 
> > >> Started the engine some time ago and was getting things in order when the
> > >> old Haltech ECU decided to blow a fuse, but not before letting ALL the smoke
> > >> out. Finding a replacement 15 year old technology ECU seemed impossible
> > >> (although a couple magically appeared on eBay and Craigslist once I stopped
> > >> looking...).
> > >> 
> > >> I bought an Electromotive TEC GT off of eBay and got a good deal.
> > >> Electromotive confirmed there was nothing wrong with it. So, I proceeded to
> > >> cut the sensor wires off the old ECU, removed the ECU and remaining harness
> > >> and spliced in the new ECU and its new harness with the original wiring.
> > >> Pretty straight forward. After all, I did the system on my original Pantera,
> > >> I did the one on my GT40, I helped with Don Franck's installation...
> > >> 
> > >> I had issues starting it... turned out it was operator error. I wasn't
> > >> throwing enough fuel at it for start up. For you carb guys.... I didn't have
> > >> the choke closed enough. Once started...
> > >> 
> > >> I really couldn't get the engine 'right'. I could make adjustments, things
> > >> would change, but not in the way I expected. Then, sitting there staring at
> > >> the laptop screen with the engine off, I realized that my MAP sensor was
> > >> reading 25kpa. It should be 101kpa. After all, that's atmospheric pressure
> > >> that we live in and breathe.
> > >> 
> > >> OK, no problem. My 1 bar MAP sensor of 11 years is bad. I called yesterday
> > >> and order a new one.
> > >> 
> > >> In the meantime, I'm discussing this strange failure with Mike Trusty and he
> > >> says...
> > >> 
> > >> 'Do me a favor. While you're waiting for the new sensor, go home tonight and
> > >> check the sensor out of the car and also check the voltages at the plug.'
> > >> 
> > >> I already checked the voltages...
> > >> 
> > >> 'Please do it again.'
> > >> 
> > >> So, last night, I pulled the MAP sensor out of the car and wired it up to a
> > >> separate circuit on the ECU and put a DVM on the output. Damn... it should
> > >> be reading about 4.8V. It was reading 4.74V. Nothing wrong with the
> > >> sensor...
> > >> 
> > >> Check voltages on the plug at the manifold. 5V. Yep. No problem.
> > >> Then, while standing there wondering what's going on, I looked at the other
> > >> plug in my hand that I used for the trial test and then looked at the plug
> > >> on the car. The orange wire (supposed to be 5V) and the black wire (Ground)
> > >> were reversed! WTF?
> > >> 
> > >> I check the old Haltech harness wiring diagram. Yep. Orange is 5V, black is
> > >> ground. I check my new wiring from the ECU to the old wiring. Yep, I've got
> > >> the new ECU 5V spliced to the orange wire and a ground wire to the black
> > >> wire. It should be fine.
> > >> 
> > >> But, going back to the plug again... Of all things.... the 'factory wired
> > >> harness' had the MAP sensor wired up backwards! I pushed the pins out of the
> > >> plug and swapped them, plugged the sensor back in and everything is working
> > >> as it is supposed to. I have 95kpa with the engine off. The engine started
> > >> immediately, I had to take a lot of fuel out of it because now it was
> > >> running rich. Hey, the MAP sensor isn't reading 'backwards' anymore.
> > >> 
> > >> Now, many will question... why didn't you have a problem before?
> > >> 
> > >> Because the old Haltech system was using the MAP sensor to only compensate
> > >> for barometric pressure. The Haltech only worked off of the throttle
> > >> position sensor. Alpha N, as Dan talked about. It could use one or the
> > >> other, but not both. So I always ran it with just the TPS as input.
> > >> 
> > >> So, even if the MAP sensor was reading 'backwards', the ECU didn't care and
> > >> I didn't care since barometric pressure is pretty constant and changes very
> > >> little and I compensated in the fuel tables and the car ran just peachy. If
> > >> I did notice the pressure was low, I can't remember that I did and obviously
> > >> didn't care at the time, even if I did!
> > >> 
> > >> But with this new ECU, I built a small vacuum 'plenum' and ran 4 vacuum
> > >> tubes to it off the TWM throttle bodies and connected the MAP sensor to that
> > >> since the TEC GT can handle both manifold pressure and throttle position.
> > >> This is now set up the same as my GT40.
> > >> 
> > >> So, another problem, that really shouldn't have been a problem, solved.
> > >> 
> > >> I get my new MAP sensor tomorrow. It will be a spare on the shelf.
> > >> 
> > >> Thanks to Mike, I was convinced to go back to the basics and check things
> > >> that I thought or assumed should be OK. Would I have found it eventually?
> > >> Sure. The moment I plugged in the new sensor and it worked the same, all
> > >> logic says that there has to be a problem somewhere else.
> > >> 
> > >> I'd be interested to know if anyone else has the old Haltech system and
> > >> could go and check to see if their harness is wired correctly. It could
> > >> explain a lot of things... Especially if they are using manifold pressure
> > >> instead of throttle position.
> > >> 
> > >> NO! I still don't want a carburetor! I absolutely love the fact that I can
> > >> use a more radical camshaft and still have plenty of low end and mid-range
> > >> response.
> > >> 
> > >> That's the end of my entertainment today.... We live and learn.
> > >> 
> > >> FWIW,
> > >> Kirby
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 20:05, Rich <hoppe1 at cox.net> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >>> Ok
> > >>> I don't respond very often.
> > >>> I have an electromotive tec 3 unit in one of my cars.
> > >>> I wanted to learn about EFI so that is why I did it.
> > >>> I have to say one car I built with a carb ran good from the first day I
> > >>> started the engine.
> > >>> It took three different EFI systems for me to get my car running to where I
> > >>> am.
> > >>> I had it on a dyno for a week. Ouch!
> > >>> Is it perfect? -- no.
> > >>> If you want EFI and not a learning experience-- have a vendor do it.
> > >>> I wanted to learn the new technology and just like in the 60's ( yeah I am
> > >>> old) I had to learn the hard way with carbs and points and cams .....
> > >>> I am glad I did it. I learned a lot an now feel I am even knowledgeable
> > >>> to
> > >>> how new cars run.
> > >>> After the EFI experience, I now have a lot more respect for carbs. They
> > >>> really deal with a lot of engine changes.
> > >>> The precise system of EFI has a hard time with the programing to meet a
> > >>> specific engine needs that make it painfull to get right.
> > >>> Carbs are a lot easier and so is a pencil and paper compared to learning a
> > >>> computer.
> > >>> But it is the age we live in.
> > >>> Rich Hoppe
> > >>> 
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Steve Hawkins
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 3:36 PM
> > >>> To: 'Roland Jaeckel' ; 'Bill Lewis' ; detomaso at realbig.com
> > >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > >>> 
> > >>> You would be wrong.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Steve
> > >>> 
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> > >>> On
> > >>> Behalf Of Roland Jaeckel
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:41 AM
> > >>> To: Bill Lewis; detomaso at realbig.com
> > >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> That's why i have vintage cars. They still use technology, i can fix
> > >>> myself..
> > >>> I don't think, that there is any Pantera with a cleveland out there with a
> > >>> 100% functional fuel injection.
> > >>> 100% means, it has to work like a proper tuned new carb.
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: "Bill Lewis" <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> > >>> To: <detomaso at realbig.com>
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 4:40 PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> CARB MAN can now go nationwide! HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!!!
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:13:07 -0400
> > >>>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> > >>>>> To: justingreisberg at hotmail.com
> > >>>>> CC: detomaso at realbig.com
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Dear Justin,
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Thanks for sharing your tale of EFI woe. It sounds like the nightmare
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>>> have feared I would suffer if I took the plunge. I know that these "bolt
> > >>>>> on" EFI systems are out there. I know that they supposedly work. I know
> > >>>>> that techno savvy owners have functioning systems that are more
> > >>>>> complicated than the bolt on versions.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> I also know that the old Holley Pro-jection system didn't work well.
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>>> know of a Pantera owner in the northwest that pursued EFI on his 351C
> > >>>>> with frustrating results I know of a Pantera owner in OKC with EFI and
> > >>>>> lots of driveability problems. These problems can also be found on
> > >>> carbs,
> > >>> 
> > >>>>> I know, but the PITA factor and the cost of screwing around with EFI
> > >>>>> versus carbs persuades me to stick with carbs for the near and
> > >>>>> intermediate future.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Yeah. I am a Luddite in this regard.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> ---- Justin Greisberg <justingreisberg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> Everyone might be sick by now of hearing my ongoing troubles with
> > >>>>>> EFI,
> > >>>>>> but I am hoping I can help save someone else the pain. $2500, 2 years
> > >>>>>> of tuning, well over 100 miles of driving a car in circles around the
> > >>>>>> block. Have come to a point where problem can not be fixed by me. I
> > >>>>>> have professional products retrotek powerjection 1 system. Older
> > >>> system
> > >>> 
> > >>>>>> (2 years) but the techs at the company can not offer me any help. Can
> > >>>>>> not fix driveability issues (goes way lean under mild acceleration, so
> > >>>>>> accelerating from a stop light leads to severe bogging and just about
> > >>>>>> stalling in the middle of an intersection.) I have asked for a refund
> > >>>>>> or a free upgrade to their new system, powerjection 3, so that maybe
> > >>>>>> they can provide better tech support (which would be a downgrade since
> > >>>>>> new system is cheaper than old system), but they stopped returning my
> > >>>>>> calls.
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> I have a 351 cleveland with CHI heads, roller cam, CHI intake.
> > >>>>>> makes
> > >>>>>> 8-12 inches vacuum at idle, which makes it harder for fuel injection
> > >>>>>> system to work.
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> I now am throwing away the entire system and starting over with a
> > >>>>>> carb.
> > >>>>>> Have to redo entire fuel system to non-EFI pump. close to $1000 to
> > >>>>>> spend on carb and fuel pump and plumbing now. Totally disgusted. I am
> > >>>>>> not made of money, and my hobby has become a source of endless stress.
> > >>>>>> The EFI was supposed to make cold starting easier, but never worked
> > >>>>>> properly. Was supposed to just start right up when you turn the key.
> > >>>>>> well, sometimes it does. cold idling was supposed to be better than an
> > >>>>>> electric choke. Doesn't do it, though. Was supposed to make driving
> > >>>>>> better, but just fouled multiple spark plugs and totally carbon fouled
> > >>>>>> the combustion chambers of my new heads and engine. Was supposed to be
> > >>>>>> easily tuneable by computer, but not so easy, even for a knowledgeable
> > >>>>>> person like me. If anyone has questions about these issues, feel free
> > >>>>>> to ask me, since I understand these issues well. It is just that this
> > >>>>>> system doesn't work as designed.
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> I know others have found some success with these systems, but I
> > >>>>>> strongly recommend staying away. Others have said I should just find a
> > >>>>>> tuner - but I don't know how much more time I can give this. I have a
> > >>>>>> job, and taking a day off from work to go to some tuner (flatbed the
> > >>>>>> car who knows where!) becomes an expensive option for a system that is
> > >>>>>> clearly advertised as just put it on and drive! And if the techs at
> > >>> the
> > >>> 
> > >>>>>> company can't fix it, then why would anyone else be able to???
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> Anyone want to buy a slightly used EFI system? for sale, cheap? NO
> > >>>>>> REFUNDS justin
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>>> 
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