[DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection

Kirby Schrader kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Thu Oct 6 21:00:20 EDT 2011 

Check the plug that goes to the MAP sensor.

Is the orange wire on pin A or pin C? Orange is 5VDC, black is GND, the middle wire (usually dark green) is the signal.

The plug is not marked on mine... you have to look at the sensor itself.


On Oct 6, 2011, at 7:08 PM, Julian Kift wrote:

> I have a F9 and harness here in a box (at some point to be used with a TWM IR setup on my GT40), what wire is connected to which pin to confirm your theory?
> 
> Julian
> 
> > From: kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 17:45:57 -0500
> > To: dmaument at comcast.net
> > CC: detomaso at realbig.com
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > 
> > 
> > And is your MAP sensor wired backwards?
> > :-)
> > 
> > You're using TPS only, right?
> > (Man, it's been few years, huh?)
> > 
> > On Oct 6, 2011, at 5:44 PM, Dave Aument wrote:
> > 
> > > interesting read ... my F9 still has all the smoke in it. Dave
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Oct 6, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
> > > 
> > >> Which allows me to segue into a.... Carb Man strikes again! (in honor of
> > >> Bill Lewis)
> > >> 
> > >> As Mikael stated, sometimes it's the stupid stuff. And, never one to shirk
> > >> from showing how stupid things and my stupidity can work together, here's a
> > >> story that resolved itself last night.
> > >> 
> > >> KInda' long, so delete if you're bored with all this EFI stuff.
> > >> 
> > >> Background
> > >> As many of you know, I installed a Haltech F9a IR EFI system on my 377
> > >> Cleveland Pantera way back in 2000 and have been completely happy with it.
> > >> Yes, Roland. I considered it 100%.
> > >> :-)
> > >> 
> > >> It was a complete system that Dennis Quella used to sell back then. It came
> > >> with a factory built harness, fuel pump, filter, hoses and all the goodies
> > >> to install it. Even instructions and a start up map! It took me about a week
> > >> to install.
> > >> 
> > >> Now, remember that statement above... 'factory built harness'.
> > >> 
> > >> Yes, the system was a fuel only ECU and I still used a distributor. Yes, it
> > >> took me awhile to learn how to tune it (it was my first attempt at EFI), but
> > >> after doing a 'seat of the pants' tuning for quite awhile driving to work
> > >> and back, I was happy. But, after nagging from all and sundry, I took it to
> > >> a dyno because I 'really should do that'. We couldn't get anything more out
> > >> of it. I was happy with my tuning, needless to say. I wrote up my experience
> > >> with the installation back then and posted it here on this list.
> > >> 
> > >> Fast forward. I built a new engine for the car (long story why, but not
> > >> relevant). Cast iron Cleveland, 4V heads, same EFI, etc. etc. The only thing
> > >> I changed was the cam. A Comp Cams solid roller. Desktop Dyno says it'll do
> > >> 560HP. Driving it what little I have so far, I'd believe it. My Pantera has
> > >> never been like this!
> > >> (Also slightly embarrassing... I have a GT40 that dyno'd at 540HP with
> > >> 427ci. A 'little old 377 Cleveland' does more? Time for a new cam in the
> > >> GT40, it seems.)
> > >> 
> > >> Started the engine some time ago and was getting things in order when the
> > >> old Haltech ECU decided to blow a fuse, but not before letting ALL the smoke
> > >> out. Finding a replacement 15 year old technology ECU seemed impossible
> > >> (although a couple magically appeared on eBay and Craigslist once I stopped
> > >> looking...).
> > >> 
> > >> I bought an Electromotive TEC GT off of eBay and got a good deal.
> > >> Electromotive confirmed there was nothing wrong with it. So, I proceeded to
> > >> cut the sensor wires off the old ECU, removed the ECU and remaining harness
> > >> and spliced in the new ECU and its new harness with the original wiring.
> > >> Pretty straight forward. After all, I did the system on my original Pantera,
> > >> I did the one on my GT40, I helped with Don Franck's installation...
> > >> 
> > >> I had issues starting it... turned out it was operator error. I wasn't
> > >> throwing enough fuel at it for start up. For you carb guys.... I didn't have
> > >> the choke closed enough. Once started...
> > >> 
> > >> I really couldn't get the engine 'right'. I could make adjustments, things
> > >> would change, but not in the way I expected. Then, sitting there staring at
> > >> the laptop screen with the engine off, I realized that my MAP sensor was
> > >> reading 25kpa. It should be 101kpa. After all, that's atmospheric pressure
> > >> that we live in and breathe.
> > >> 
> > >> OK, no problem. My 1 bar MAP sensor of 11 years is bad. I called yesterday
> > >> and order a new one.
> > >> 
> > >> In the meantime, I'm discussing this strange failure with Mike Trusty and he
> > >> says...
> > >> 
> > >> 'Do me a favor. While you're waiting for the new sensor, go home tonight and
> > >> check the sensor out of the car and also check the voltages at the plug.'
> > >> 
> > >> I already checked the voltages...
> > >> 
> > >> 'Please do it again.'
> > >> 
> > >> So, last night, I pulled the MAP sensor out of the car and wired it up to a
> > >> separate circuit on the ECU and put a DVM on the output. Damn... it should
> > >> be reading about 4.8V. It was reading 4.74V. Nothing wrong with the
> > >> sensor...
> > >> 
> > >> Check voltages on the plug at the manifold. 5V. Yep. No problem.
> > >> Then, while standing there wondering what's going on, I looked at the other
> > >> plug in my hand that I used for the trial test and then looked at the plug
> > >> on the car. The orange wire (supposed to be 5V) and the black wire (Ground)
> > >> were reversed! WTF?
> > >> 
> > >> I check the old Haltech harness wiring diagram. Yep. Orange is 5V, black is
> > >> ground. I check my new wiring from the ECU to the old wiring. Yep, I've got
> > >> the new ECU 5V spliced to the orange wire and a ground wire to the black
> > >> wire. It should be fine.
> > >> 
> > >> But, going back to the plug again... Of all things.... the 'factory wired
> > >> harness' had the MAP sensor wired up backwards! I pushed the pins out of the
> > >> plug and swapped them, plugged the sensor back in and everything is working
> > >> as it is supposed to. I have 95kpa with the engine off. The engine started
> > >> immediately, I had to take a lot of fuel out of it because now it was
> > >> running rich. Hey, the MAP sensor isn't reading 'backwards' anymore.
> > >> 
> > >> Now, many will question... why didn't you have a problem before?
> > >> 
> > >> Because the old Haltech system was using the MAP sensor to only compensate
> > >> for barometric pressure. The Haltech only worked off of the throttle
> > >> position sensor. Alpha N, as Dan talked about. It could use one or the
> > >> other, but not both. So I always ran it with just the TPS as input.
> > >> 
> > >> So, even if the MAP sensor was reading 'backwards', the ECU didn't care and
> > >> I didn't care since barometric pressure is pretty constant and changes very
> > >> little and I compensated in the fuel tables and the car ran just peachy. If
> > >> I did notice the pressure was low, I can't remember that I did and obviously
> > >> didn't care at the time, even if I did!
> > >> 
> > >> But with this new ECU, I built a small vacuum 'plenum' and ran 4 vacuum
> > >> tubes to it off the TWM throttle bodies and connected the MAP sensor to that
> > >> since the TEC GT can handle both manifold pressure and throttle position.
> > >> This is now set up the same as my GT40.
> > >> 
> > >> So, another problem, that really shouldn't have been a problem, solved.
> > >> 
> > >> I get my new MAP sensor tomorrow. It will be a spare on the shelf.
> > >> 
> > >> Thanks to Mike, I was convinced to go back to the basics and check things
> > >> that I thought or assumed should be OK. Would I have found it eventually?
> > >> Sure. The moment I plugged in the new sensor and it worked the same, all
> > >> logic says that there has to be a problem somewhere else.
> > >> 
> > >> I'd be interested to know if anyone else has the old Haltech system and
> > >> could go and check to see if their harness is wired correctly. It could
> > >> explain a lot of things... Especially if they are using manifold pressure
> > >> instead of throttle position.
> > >> 
> > >> NO! I still don't want a carburetor! I absolutely love the fact that I can
> > >> use a more radical camshaft and still have plenty of low end and mid-range
> > >> response.
> > >> 
> > >> That's the end of my entertainment today.... We live and learn.
> > >> 
> > >> FWIW,
> > >> Kirby
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 20:05, Rich <hoppe1 at cox.net> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >>> Ok
> > >>> I don't respond very often.
> > >>> I have an electromotive tec 3 unit in one of my cars.
> > >>> I wanted to learn about EFI so that is why I did it.
> > >>> I have to say one car I built with a carb ran good from the first day I
> > >>> started the engine.
> > >>> It took three different EFI systems for me to get my car running to where I
> > >>> am.
> > >>> I had it on a dyno for a week. Ouch!
> > >>> Is it perfect? -- no.
> > >>> If you want EFI and not a learning experience-- have a vendor do it.
> > >>> I wanted to learn the new technology and just like in the 60's ( yeah I am
> > >>> old) I had to learn the hard way with carbs and points and cams .....
> > >>> I am glad I did it. I learned a lot an now feel I am even knowledgeable
> > >>> to
> > >>> how new cars run.
> > >>> After the EFI experience, I now have a lot more respect for carbs. They
> > >>> really deal with a lot of engine changes.
> > >>> The precise system of EFI has a hard time with the programing to meet a
> > >>> specific engine needs that make it painfull to get right.
> > >>> Carbs are a lot easier and so is a pencil and paper compared to learning a
> > >>> computer.
> > >>> But it is the age we live in.
> > >>> Rich Hoppe
> > >>> 
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Steve Hawkins
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 3:36 PM
> > >>> To: 'Roland Jaeckel' ; 'Bill Lewis' ; detomaso at realbig.com
> > >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > >>> 
> > >>> You would be wrong.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Steve
> > >>> 
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> > >>> On
> > >>> Behalf Of Roland Jaeckel
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:41 AM
> > >>> To: Bill Lewis; detomaso at realbig.com
> > >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> That's why i have vintage cars. They still use technology, i can fix
> > >>> myself..
> > >>> I don't think, that there is any Pantera with a cleveland out there with a
> > >>> 100% functional fuel injection.
> > >>> 100% means, it has to work like a proper tuned new carb.
> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > >>> From: "Bill Lewis" <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> > >>> To: <detomaso at realbig.com>
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 4:40 PM
> > >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> CARB MAN can now go nationwide! HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!!!
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> 
> > >>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:13:07 -0400
> > >>>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> > >>>>> To: justingreisberg at hotmail.com
> > >>>>> CC: detomaso at realbig.com
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Dear Justin,
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Thanks for sharing your tale of EFI woe. It sounds like the nightmare
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>>> have feared I would suffer if I took the plunge. I know that these "bolt
> > >>>>> on" EFI systems are out there. I know that they supposedly work. I know
> > >>>>> that techno savvy owners have functioning systems that are more
> > >>>>> complicated than the bolt on versions.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> I also know that the old Holley Pro-jection system didn't work well.
> > >>>>> I
> > >>>>> know of a Pantera owner in the northwest that pursued EFI on his 351C
> > >>>>> with frustrating results I know of a Pantera owner in OKC with EFI and
> > >>>>> lots of driveability problems. These problems can also be found on
> > >>> carbs,
> > >>> 
> > >>>>> I know, but the PITA factor and the cost of screwing around with EFI
> > >>>>> versus carbs persuades me to stick with carbs for the near and
> > >>>>> intermediate future.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Yeah. I am a Luddite in this regard.
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> 
> > >>>>> ---- Justin Greisberg <justingreisberg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> Everyone might be sick by now of hearing my ongoing troubles with
> > >>>>>> EFI,
> > >>>>>> but I am hoping I can help save someone else the pain. $2500, 2 years
> > >>>>>> of tuning, well over 100 miles of driving a car in circles around the
> > >>>>>> block. Have come to a point where problem can not be fixed by me. I
> > >>>>>> have professional products retrotek powerjection 1 system. Older
> > >>> system
> > >>> 
> > >>>>>> (2 years) but the techs at the company can not offer me any help. Can
> > >>>>>> not fix driveability issues (goes way lean under mild acceleration, so
> > >>>>>> accelerating from a stop light leads to severe bogging and just about
> > >>>>>> stalling in the middle of an intersection.) I have asked for a refund
> > >>>>>> or a free upgrade to their new system, powerjection 3, so that maybe
> > >>>>>> they can provide better tech support (which would be a downgrade since
> > >>>>>> new system is cheaper than old system), but they stopped returning my
> > >>>>>> calls.
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> I have a 351 cleveland with CHI heads, roller cam, CHI intake.
> > >>>>>> makes
> > >>>>>> 8-12 inches vacuum at idle, which makes it harder for fuel injection
> > >>>>>> system to work.
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> I now am throwing away the entire system and starting over with a
> > >>>>>> carb.
> > >>>>>> Have to redo entire fuel system to non-EFI pump. close to $1000 to
> > >>>>>> spend on carb and fuel pump and plumbing now. Totally disgusted. I am
> > >>>>>> not made of money, and my hobby has become a source of endless stress.
> > >>>>>> The EFI was supposed to make cold starting easier, but never worked
> > >>>>>> properly. Was supposed to just start right up when you turn the key.
> > >>>>>> well, sometimes it does. cold idling was supposed to be better than an
> > >>>>>> electric choke. Doesn't do it, though. Was supposed to make driving
> > >>>>>> better, but just fouled multiple spark plugs and totally carbon fouled
> > >>>>>> the combustion chambers of my new heads and engine. Was supposed to be
> > >>>>>> easily tuneable by computer, but not so easy, even for a knowledgeable
> > >>>>>> person like me. If anyone has questions about these issues, feel free
> > >>>>>> to ask me, since I understand these issues well. It is just that this
> > >>>>>> system doesn't work as designed.
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> I know others have found some success with these systems, but I
> > >>>>>> strongly recommend staying away. Others have said I should just find a
> > >>>>>> tuner - but I don't know how much more time I can give this. I have a
> > >>>>>> job, and taking a day off from work to go to some tuner (flatbed the
> > >>>>>> car who knows where!) becomes an expensive option for a system that is
> > >>>>>> clearly advertised as just put it on and drive! And if the techs at
> > >>> the
> > >>> 
> > >>>>>> company can't fix it, then why would anyone else be able to???
> > >>>>>> 
> > >>>>>> Anyone want to buy a slightly used EFI system? for sale, cheap? NO
> > >>>>>> REFUNDS justin
> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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