[DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection

Julian Kift julian_kift at hotmail.com
Thu Oct 6 20:08:55 EDT 2011


I have a F9 and harness here in a box (at some point to be used with a TWM IR setup on my GT40), what wire is connected to which pin to confirm your theory?

Julian

> From: kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 17:45:57 -0500
> To: dmaument at comcast.net
> CC: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> 
> 
> And is your MAP sensor wired backwards?
> :-)
> 
> You're using TPS only, right?
> (Man, it's been few years, huh?)
> 
> On Oct 6, 2011, at 5:44 PM, Dave Aument wrote:
> 
> > interesting read ... my F9 still has all the smoke in it.   Dave
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Oct 6, 2011, at 9:33 AM, Kirby Schrader wrote:
> > 
> >> Which allows me to segue into a....  Carb Man strikes again! (in honor of
> >> Bill Lewis)
> >> 
> >> As Mikael stated, sometimes it's the stupid stuff. And, never one to shirk
> >> from showing how stupid things and my stupidity can work together, here's a
> >> story that resolved itself last night.
> >> 
> >> KInda' long, so delete if you're bored with all this EFI stuff.
> >> 
> >> Background
> >> As many of you know, I installed a Haltech F9a IR EFI system on my 377
> >> Cleveland Pantera way back in 2000 and have been completely happy with it.
> >> Yes, Roland. I considered it 100%.
> >> :-)
> >> 
> >> It was a complete system that Dennis Quella used to sell back then. It came
> >> with a factory built harness, fuel pump, filter, hoses and all the goodies
> >> to install it. Even instructions and a start up map! It took me about a week
> >> to install.
> >> 
> >> Now, remember that statement above... 'factory built harness'.
> >> 
> >> Yes, the system was a fuel only ECU and I still used a distributor. Yes, it
> >> took me awhile to learn how to tune it (it was my first attempt at EFI), but
> >> after doing a 'seat of the pants' tuning for quite awhile driving to work
> >> and back, I was happy. But, after nagging from all and sundry, I took it to
> >> a dyno because I 'really should do that'. We couldn't get anything more out
> >> of it. I was happy with my tuning, needless to say. I wrote up my experience
> >> with the installation back then and posted it here on this list.
> >> 
> >> Fast forward. I built a new engine for the car (long story why, but not
> >> relevant). Cast iron Cleveland, 4V heads, same EFI, etc. etc. The only thing
> >> I changed was the cam. A Comp Cams solid roller. Desktop Dyno says it'll do
> >> 560HP. Driving it what little I have so far, I'd believe it. My Pantera has
> >> never been like this!
> >> (Also slightly embarrassing... I have a GT40 that dyno'd at 540HP with
> >> 427ci. A 'little old 377 Cleveland' does more? Time for a new cam in the
> >> GT40, it seems.)
> >> 
> >> Started the engine some time ago and was getting things in order when the
> >> old Haltech ECU decided to blow a fuse, but not before letting ALL the smoke
> >> out. Finding a replacement 15 year old technology ECU seemed impossible
> >> (although a couple magically appeared on eBay and Craigslist once I stopped
> >> looking...).
> >> 
> >> I bought an Electromotive TEC GT off of eBay and got a good deal.
> >> Electromotive confirmed there was nothing wrong with it. So, I proceeded to
> >> cut the sensor wires off the old ECU, removed the ECU and remaining harness
> >> and spliced in the new ECU and its new harness with the original wiring.
> >> Pretty straight forward. After all, I did the system on my original Pantera,
> >> I did the one on my GT40, I helped with Don Franck's installation...
> >> 
> >> I had issues starting it... turned out it was operator error. I wasn't
> >> throwing enough fuel at it for start up. For you carb guys.... I didn't have
> >> the choke closed enough. Once started...
> >> 
> >> I really couldn't get the engine 'right'. I could make adjustments, things
> >> would change, but not in the way I expected. Then, sitting there staring at
> >> the laptop screen with the engine off, I realized that my MAP sensor was
> >> reading 25kpa. It should be 101kpa. After all, that's atmospheric pressure
> >> that we live in and breathe.
> >> 
> >> OK, no problem. My 1 bar MAP sensor of 11 years is bad. I called yesterday
> >> and order a new one.
> >> 
> >> In the meantime, I'm discussing this strange failure with Mike Trusty and he
> >> says...
> >> 
> >> 'Do me a favor. While you're waiting for the new sensor, go home tonight and
> >> check the sensor out of the car and also check the voltages at the plug.'
> >> 
> >> I already checked the voltages...
> >> 
> >> 'Please do it again.'
> >> 
> >> So, last night, I pulled the MAP sensor out of the car and wired it up to a
> >> separate circuit on the ECU and put a DVM on the output. Damn... it should
> >> be reading about 4.8V. It was reading 4.74V. Nothing wrong with the
> >> sensor...
> >> 
> >> Check voltages on the plug at the manifold. 5V. Yep. No problem.
> >> Then, while standing there wondering what's going on, I looked at the other
> >> plug in my hand that I used for the trial test and then looked at the plug
> >> on the car. The orange wire (supposed to be 5V) and the black wire (Ground)
> >> were reversed! WTF?
> >> 
> >> I check the old Haltech harness wiring diagram. Yep. Orange is 5V, black is
> >> ground. I check my new wiring from the ECU to the old wiring. Yep, I've got
> >> the new ECU 5V spliced to the orange wire and a ground wire to the black
> >> wire. It should be fine.
> >> 
> >> But, going back to the plug again... Of all things.... the 'factory wired
> >> harness' had the MAP sensor wired up backwards! I pushed the pins out of the
> >> plug and swapped them, plugged the sensor back in and everything is working
> >> as it is supposed to. I have 95kpa with the engine off. The engine started
> >> immediately, I had to take a lot of fuel out of it because now it was
> >> running rich. Hey, the MAP sensor isn't reading 'backwards' anymore.
> >> 
> >> Now, many will question... why didn't you have a problem before?
> >> 
> >> Because the old Haltech system was using the MAP sensor to only compensate
> >> for barometric pressure. The Haltech only worked off of the throttle
> >> position sensor. Alpha N, as Dan talked about. It could use one or the
> >> other, but not both. So I always ran it with just the TPS as input.
> >> 
> >> So, even if the MAP sensor was reading 'backwards', the ECU didn't care and
> >> I didn't care since barometric pressure is pretty constant and changes very
> >> little and I compensated in the fuel tables and the car ran just peachy. If
> >> I did notice the pressure was low, I can't remember that I did and obviously
> >> didn't care at the time, even if I did!
> >> 
> >> But with this new ECU, I built a small vacuum 'plenum' and ran 4 vacuum
> >> tubes to it off the TWM throttle bodies and connected the MAP sensor to that
> >> since the TEC GT can handle both manifold pressure and throttle position.
> >> This is now set up the same as my GT40.
> >> 
> >> So, another problem, that really shouldn't have been a problem, solved.
> >> 
> >> I get my new MAP sensor tomorrow. It will be a spare on the shelf.
> >> 
> >> Thanks to Mike, I was convinced to go back to the basics and check things
> >> that I thought or assumed should be OK. Would I have found it eventually?
> >> Sure. The moment I plugged in the new sensor and it worked the same, all
> >> logic says that there has to be a problem somewhere else.
> >> 
> >> I'd be interested to know if anyone else has the old Haltech system and
> >> could go and check to see if their harness is wired correctly. It could
> >> explain a lot of things... Especially if they are using manifold pressure
> >> instead of throttle position.
> >> 
> >> NO! I still don't want a carburetor! I absolutely love the fact that I can
> >> use a more radical camshaft and still have plenty of low end and mid-range
> >> response.
> >> 
> >> That's the end of my entertainment today.... We live and learn.
> >> 
> >> FWIW,
> >> Kirby
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 20:05, Rich <hoppe1 at cox.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Ok
> >>> I don't respond very often.
> >>> I have an electromotive tec 3 unit in one of my cars.
> >>> I wanted to learn about EFI so that is why I did it.
> >>> I have to say one car I built with a carb ran good from the first day I
> >>> started the engine.
> >>> It took three different EFI systems for me to get my car running to where I
> >>> am.
> >>> I had it on a dyno for a week.  Ouch!
> >>> Is it perfect? -- no.
> >>> If you want EFI and not a learning experience-- have a vendor do it.
> >>> I wanted to learn the new technology and just like in the 60's ( yeah I am
> >>> old) I had to learn the hard way with carbs and points and cams .....
> >>> I am glad I did it.   I learned a lot an now feel I am even knowledgeable
> >>> to
> >>> how new cars run.
> >>> After the EFI experience, I now have a lot more respect for carbs.  They
> >>> really deal with a lot of engine changes.
> >>> The precise system of EFI has a hard time with the programing to meet a
> >>> specific engine needs that make it painfull to get right.
> >>> Carbs are a lot easier and so is a pencil and paper compared to learning a
> >>> computer.
> >>> But it is the age we live in.
> >>> Rich Hoppe
> >>> 
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Steve Hawkins
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 3:36 PM
> >>> To: 'Roland Jaeckel' ; 'Bill Lewis' ; detomaso at realbig.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> >>> 
> >>> You would be wrong.
> >>> 
> >>> Steve
> >>> 
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> >>> On
> >>> Behalf Of Roland Jaeckel
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:41 AM
> >>> To: Bill Lewis; detomaso at realbig.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> That's why i have vintage cars. They still use technology, i can fix
> >>> myself..
> >>> I don't think, that there is any Pantera with a cleveland out there with a
> >>> 100% functional fuel injection.
> >>> 100% means, it has to work like a proper tuned new carb.
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Bill Lewis" <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
> >>> To: <detomaso at realbig.com>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 4:40 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> CARB MAN can now go nationwide!    HA  HA  HA  HAAAAAA!!!!
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:13:07 -0400
> >>>>> From: cengles at cox.net
> >>>>> To: justingreisberg at hotmail.com
> >>>>> CC: detomaso at realbig.com
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] final verduct on self-tuning fuel injection
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Dear Justin,
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Thanks for sharing your tale of EFI woe. It sounds like the nightmare
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> have feared I would suffer if I took the plunge. I know that these "bolt
> >>>>> on" EFI systems are out there. I know that they supposedly work. I know
> >>>>> that techno savvy owners have functioning systems that are more
> >>>>> complicated than the bolt on versions.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I also know that the old Holley Pro-jection system didn't work well.
> >>>>> I
> >>>>> know of a Pantera owner in the northwest that pursued EFI on his 351C
> >>>>> with frustrating results I know of a Pantera owner in OKC with EFI and
> >>>>> lots of driveability problems. These problems can also be found on
> >>> carbs,
> >>> 
> >>>>> I know, but the PITA factor and the cost of screwing around with EFI
> >>>>> versus carbs persuades me to stick with carbs for the near and
> >>>>> intermediate future.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Yeah. I am a Luddite in this regard.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> ---- Justin Greisberg <justingreisberg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Everyone might be sick by now of hearing my ongoing troubles with
> >>>>>> EFI,
> >>>>>> but I am hoping I can help save someone else the pain. $2500, 2 years
> >>>>>> of tuning, well over 100 miles of driving a car in circles around the
> >>>>>> block. Have come to a point where problem can not be fixed by me. I
> >>>>>> have professional products retrotek powerjection 1 system. Older
> >>> system
> >>> 
> >>>>>> (2 years) but the techs at the company can not offer me any help. Can
> >>>>>> not fix driveability issues (goes way lean under mild acceleration, so
> >>>>>> accelerating from a stop light leads to severe bogging and just about
> >>>>>> stalling in the middle of an intersection.) I have asked for a refund
> >>>>>> or a free upgrade to their new system, powerjection 3, so that maybe
> >>>>>> they can provide better tech support (which would be a downgrade since
> >>>>>> new system is cheaper than old system), but they stopped returning my
> >>>>>> calls.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I have a 351 cleveland with CHI heads, roller cam, CHI intake.
> >>>>>> makes
> >>>>>> 8-12 inches vacuum at idle, which makes it harder for fuel injection
> >>>>>> system to work.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I now am throwing away the entire system and starting over with a
> >>>>>> carb.
> >>>>>> Have to redo entire fuel system to non-EFI pump. close to $1000 to
> >>>>>> spend on carb and fuel pump and plumbing now. Totally disgusted. I am
> >>>>>> not made of money, and my hobby has become a source of endless stress.
> >>>>>> The EFI was supposed to make cold starting easier, but never worked
> >>>>>> properly. Was supposed to just start right up when you turn the key.
> >>>>>> well, sometimes it does. cold idling was supposed to be better than an
> >>>>>> electric choke. Doesn't do it, though. Was supposed to make driving
> >>>>>> better, but just fouled multiple spark plugs and totally carbon fouled
> >>>>>> the combustion chambers of my new heads and engine. Was supposed to be
> >>>>>> easily tuneable by computer, but not so easy, even for a knowledgeable
> >>>>>> person like me. If anyone has questions about these issues, feel free
> >>>>>> to ask me, since I understand these issues well. It is just that this
> >>>>>> system doesn't work as designed.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I know others have found some success with these systems, but I
> >>>>>> strongly recommend staying away. Others have said I should just find a
> >>>>>> tuner - but I don't know how much more time I can give this. I have a
> >>>>>> job, and taking a day off from work to go to some tuner (flatbed the
> >>>>>> car who knows where!) becomes an expensive option for a system that is
> >>>>>> clearly advertised as just put it on and drive! And if the techs at
> >>> the
> >>> 
> >>>>>> company can't fix it, then why would anyone else be able to???
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Anyone want to buy a slightly used EFI system? for sale, cheap? NO
> >>>>>> REFUNDS justin
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> 
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