[DeTomaso] EFI

CharlesMcCall charlesmccall at gmail.com
Wed Oct 5 14:44:02 EDT 2011


My own two cents is that I think it is theortically impossible to purchase a
generic carb out of the box that will work well on every application. It
will have been set up with a certain engine configuration in mind, and if
your engine doesn't match that configuration then you will have problems. 

I paid relatively big $$ to buy a Holley 700 from a DeTomaso vendor that had
been "dyno tuned to work on a Pantera". 

What is a Pantera? If it is a bone-stock 351C, then perhaps it would have
worked just fine. On my car it ran quite poorly, and I eventually gave up
trying to get it sorted out myself and send it to a professional. 

In my case I used Chuck Nuytten (www.chucknuytten.com). I sent him a check,
my carb, and  a 5-page questionnaire regarding my engine configuration, cam
specs, heads, car weight, etc. 

What I got back was as close to a plug-and-play carb as I think you could
get. It works really really well. 

Another list member who may or may not speak up recommended their services,
and he dyno-tuned a CN modified carb and found that after a day on the dyno,
he managed to eek out a whopping 1hp and 2ft-lb or torque (or vice versa, it
doesn't really matter). 

My point is that intuitively I reject the idea that a store- bought carb
will work perfectly on your engine without tuning, especially if you move
away from a stock configuration. My other point is that if people are having
problems sorting out their carbs, that there are experts in the field and at
least I am a satisfied customer of one of them. 

I have no vested interest in CN, blah blah, but I'm happy. I would have been
money ahead buying a personalized carb from him in the first place instead
of one "tuned for Panteras". 

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of Mikael
Sent: miércoles, 05 de octubre de 2011 19:27
To: michael at michaelshortt.com; 'Jerry R Knotts'
Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] EFI

At the risk of sounding like product placement, buy a Summit carb, only carb
I've had that doesn't need constant tuning, worked right out of the box and
best throttle response ever. If you like Holleys, be happy that most parts
interchange.

Mikael

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: michael at michaelshortt.com [mailto:michaelsavga at gmail.com] 
Sendt: 5. oktober 2011 18:55
Til: Jerry R Knotts
Cc: Kirby Schrader; Mikael; detomaso at realbig.com
Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] EFI

Not to sound like a smarta#$, but why don't y'all just use a simple intake
and carb temporarily so you can drive and enjoy your cars.

I mean if the whole point is to make them more "road-friendly", seems to me
like you have accomplished the polar opposite with these systems.

I would truly love a set of eight funnels sticking up off the top of my
engine, I could go with Webers ( talk about a sync and linkage
headache)

or I could go with an EFI system and get the same look with supposedly
increased performance, but in either case I have to cut the decklid

for clearance and I won't do that.

Unless you are like Kirby or Mike Trusty and are a genius at this whole EFI
thing, why reinvent the wheel?

Is it the challenge of doing it, landing the prom queen for your prom date?

Why not go with one of the proven cheerleaders, Holley, she can be a Demon
I've also heard.

Better to go with something that actually puts out than have the coolest
looking one that just sits at home doing doing.

Michael





On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Jerry R Knotts <knottsj at galstar.com> wrote:
> I have the usual Project From Hell.  I decided in my infinite wisdom 
> to put a 393 Windsor in my '95 mustang.  Cutting out large pieces of 
> the frustarting story, I jump to the laptop dyno tunning in Omaha at 
> BJs.  We thought something was wrong with the MAF since I was using an 
> EEC tuner board.  I had to adjust the flow numbers much differently 
> than I had previously calculate.  About the time we were making 
> headway one of the multidisc clutches burned up from the torque.  
> Later found it had been put in backwards and had stripped the female 
> splines out of half of it.  Took the car back to Oklahoma and worked 
> on the tuning for about 6 months,  In that time I found the the EEC 
> tuner that I had bough from the manufacturer did not data log as it was
supposed to so I bought an auxilary data logger.
> Had extreme trouble getting the idle to work.  After about a year I 
> took it to OKC for another dyno tune.  At the tuners we found that the 
> engine shop in Omaha had iinstalled a set of 30 lb injectors instead 
> of the 36lbers I had taken.  Also that the EEC tuner working on a W4HO 
> box that I bought at the Omaha was for an auto and worked quite 
> differently from the T4MO box that I had had.  Later I found the 
> addresses for both decoded boxes were incorrect so a number of the 
> changes that I had been working on wer not what the boxes used for the 
> combustion process.  There is much more to the stoy but the car still 
> sits in the back of the barn with the idea I will start work on it again.
>
> On the other hand the box I modified with LSTuner runs like stink in 
> my LS1 RX7.
>
> Go figure,
> Sitting here with my sharp stick waiting to polk it in my eye, jerry 
> knotts
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirby Schrader" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> To: "Mikael" <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk>
> Cc: <detomaso at realbig.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 9:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] EFI
>
>
>> Good suggestions. Sometimes there are really strange things. I am 
>> trying to tune my Pantera and was having difficulties. Turns out my 
>> 13 year old MAP sensor is reading 45kpa when it should be saying 101. 
>> And it seems to be intermittent at that. Makes for difficult tuning.
>>
>> As a comment though... most systems I know about and have read about 
>> are only closed loop during cruise.
>> I could be wrong, but they all switch off closed loop during full 
>> throttle and fall back to a map.
>>
>> These so called 'self learning' systems are all BS as far as I'm 
>> concerned.
>> You have to get close manually before you can go closed loop. There's 
>> no way the system will compensate for something that's completely out 
>> in left field. No way. I don't care what you read in the marketing 
>> blah blah blah.
>>
>> This is the same as a carburetor. You have to pick the right type of 
>> carb, CFM and jetting to get close and then you start tuning for YOUR 
>> engine. I bought a carburetor once that was supposed to work as is. 
>> My car would hardly run.
>>
>> And remember... when a new EFI system is put on a production car, the 
>> car companies literally have a full team of engineers and technicians 
>> who run the engine on a dyno and then take the cars out to all parts 
>> of the country and run them through tests in all conditions. 
>> Altitude, cold, hot, humid, etc..
>> Why? To set up the maps and feedback loops so the system works as you 
>> would expect it to when you buy it off the showroom floor.
>>
>> Ever seen the documentary on the development of the Ford GT? They 
>> couldn't even get the engine to START the first time around!
>> The 'EFI expert' of Ford ended up using what I think I remember 
>> hearing as a program from a Crown Vic! Just to get it running! Then 
>> they started tuning.
>>
>> So even the experts have to work hard to get a EFI system set up the 
>> first time around.
>>
>> And we're talking about each an every one of us having a completely 
>> different engine. Different heads, cams, compression, bore, stroke, 
>> blah, blah, blah.... so each and every map and setup will be different.
>>
>> OK, I'm off my soapbox now... I like my EFI setups and will continue 
>> to use them.
>>
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 09:06, Mikael <mikael_hass at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
>>
>>> Suggestions: I was sitting here thinking, can I suggest some remedy 
>>> for the lean and severe bogging. Justin, I'm sure you've done all 
>>> the sensible things, so I'll give you a few totally weird 
>>> suggestions, forgive me.
>>> -Some EFI systems work strange if they don't get enough juice 
>>> (electricity).
>>> Is your alternator fine? Grounding? Are there grounding wires from 
>>> engine and gearbox to chassis?
>>> -I once had a car that did the same, but with a carb. It turned out 
>>> to be a wire that was neither isolated nor fastened properly, so the 
>>> g-force made it short against the engine I know, weird suggestions.
>>>
>>> Some comments, from many angles, from a carb fan:
>>> -Not many people can feel the difference between a properly tuned 
>>> EFI and a properly tuned carb -On non-fuel-economy cars, I'd never 
>>> do EFI. Why add complexity? Why spend money?
>>> -All carbs I've had have on an O2 meter shown a little lean when 
>>> accelerating, and still have excellent throttle response -Buying 
>>> things partly because the company claims to have experts sitting 
>>> waiting to take your call is very optimistic. These are slightly 
>>> trained call center employees, with targets on number of calls per 
>>> day. My experience is that you quite soon know more about their 
>>> product than they do
>>>
>>> Question: Are any of those EFIs closed loop? That's how OEM works, 
>>> and if it is, then tuning should be unnecessary
>>>
>>> Mikael
>>>
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