[DeTomaso] Politics!

[Roland Jaeckel]

For me it shows, that Pantera folks are socializing with each other. That
differs them from other car nuts and that's why i really love this group.
It shows also, against the most meaning here in Europe, that americans have
different meanings about life and social systems.
The main difference between here and the PI Forum is: No one is banned,
because he sees things different to the owner of the board.
If i don't want to read it, i delete it, but mostly i follow those
dicussions with lots of interest.

Roland Jaeckel


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Konrad Szwab" <kszwab at gmail.com>
To: "'de tomaso digest'" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Politics!


> "All is needed for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing".
>
> By being silent and not speaking out achieves exactly what those on the 
> side
> of oppression want. By speaking only in "appropriate places", those places
> can be marginalized, extinguished until there is no more avenue for 
> dissent.
>
> Yes, politics is divisive, unfortunately.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] 
> On
> Behalf Of Mikael
> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 2:10 AM
> To: unlisted-recipients:; no To-header on input
> Cc: 'de tomaso digest'
> Subject: [DeTomaso] Politics!
>
> I must admit I'm puzzled to see all this politics that sometimes pop up 
> here
> and on the PI Forum as well. What's the point?
>
> When I see a e.g. rock star coming out with political messages, I wonder 
> why
> they do that. Do they think they know more about politics because they can
> play rock? Secondly, and more important here, why do they want to push 
> half
> the music buying population away from them by talking politics, the half
> that doesn't agree with them. And that's the thing about talking politics,
> telling everybody your political views never gets you more friends, it 
> often
> creates enemies.
>
> So to whoever posts political topics here, what do you hope to achieve? If
> e.g. you're a left wing and post a message, well argued in your view, what
> do you expect? Do you expect that the right wing guy reading it thinks to
> himself, "well all my beliefs, that were built through my life and my
> experiences, maybe I was wrong because this post by XX is so well argued 
> and
> documented". Get real, that never happens. So the only thing that can be
> achieved by these posts, that emphasize what makes us different instead of
> what makes us a community, is controversy.
>
> I try to ignore the political posts, I (almost) don't care what you think.
> Almost because if some extreme politics were the norm here, that were far
> from my own, I would drop out. Others may feel the same way. So political
> posts do the DeTomaso community no good IMHO.
>
> So to those that post political topics, why don't you go into politics and
> tell those communities about your Pantera passion instead?!?
>
> (A fun thing for me, not being American, is guessing abbreviations like
> STFU, managed to guess that one from the context)
>
> Mikael
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: gow2 at rc-tech.net [mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net]
> Sendt: 31. oktober 2011 22:56
> Til: doug sedon
> Cc: Ken Green; michael at michaelshortt.com; de tomaso digest
> Emne: Re: [DeTomaso] unions?
>
> Really? There is not enough time to address all the silly things you've 
> said
> here.
>
>
>
>
>> first of all, the clintons are
>> republicans dressed as donkeys.  they got their republican economics
>> packages passed w/the help of republican congresses.  and the bottom
>> fell out of the economy in september/october - a bit before anyone
>> knew who was gonna be prez.  mccain made an a$$ of himself during the
>> initial start of the crisis.  good economy we had under bush?!?  good,
>> maybe for the few percent at the tom of the income ladder.  sucky for
>> everyone else.  two unfunded wars and the bush tax cuts on top of
>> banking/finance deregulation ensured the market collapse.  the largest
>> deficit spending in history up to that point...
>>
>>
>> the "stimulus" spending is a drop in the bucket in the debt that has
>> recently been accumulated.  and, it has been used to start to shore up
>> our infrastructure, and to keep unemployment from being a lot worse
>> than it is today.  our infrastructure is literally falling apart at
>> the seams.  how are we going to fix it w/more tax cuts, and more
>> deregulation?  and tax cuts & deregulation are what got us into this
>> mess - how is more of it gonna help fix things?  :>/ and expanded
>> govt? are you kidding?  gwb w/his patriot act (oxymoron!) and dhs
>> (another oxymoron!) have expanded the govt more than anyone!  and
>> let's not forget his no child's behind left unscathed act, which
>> mandated programs for the states and no money to fund them.  or the
>> prescription drug act which was a gimme to the insurance and drug
> companies.
>>
>>
>> i love how you attempt to distort what really went down.  :>/
>>
>> doug s.,
>> #2602
>> btw, hillary or not, walmart would be a second-rate biz today if it
>> didn't make everything in china.  personally, i do not remember
>> walmart pushing made in usa; but then again, i am and have always been
>> afraid to go inside a walmart...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>________________________________
>>>From: GW <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>>>To: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>>Cc: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>; "michael at michaelshortt.com"
>>> <michael at michaelshortt.com>; de tomaso digest <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 9:31 AM
>>>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions?
>>>
>>>It is nearly impossible to see where the unions stop and our
>>>government  starts.
>>>
>>>We all know the democrat housing bubble crashed this economy. Several
>>>tried to stop it including Bush who tried 13x and brought it to a vote
>>>2x  which was slapped down by the dems. But when did the bubble burst?
>>>When  Obama was seen as the obvious victor to the elections,
>>>stockholders began  draining the market. Their not dumb. They saw what
>>>was coming and it  became a game of who can get their money out fast
>>>before the markets  drop. The good economy we had under Bush was gone!
>>>
>>>There was a week where McCain gained momentum. If you look at that
>>>week  the market began to recover. As the excitement for McCain
>>>dropped and  obama became the obvious winner, the markets went into a 
>>>nose
> dive.
>>>
>>>Do you remember a time when Walmart pushed "Made in the USA"? Do you
>>>remember when it stopped? It stopped when Hillary Clinton got on
>>>Walmarts  board of directors. She set Walmart up with Chinese vendors
>>>and changed  the direction of Walmart and stopped the "Made in the USA"
> campaign.
>>>
>>>When Hillary was campaigning it was found one of her major backers
>>>were  the Chinese. When Hillary became secretary of state what was the
>>>first  thing she did? Hillary went to China to secure loans for the
>>>bail  outs...aka government expansion and union pensions. You can
>>>still see the  videos of Hillary in China. Hillary stood up at several
>>>meetings in China  and said "We are reseting relations" (A childish
>>>dig at Bush she kept  repeating at the time; remember the reset button
>>>she carried around) She  continued to say "We are no longer interested
>>>in your human rights  issues, we are just interested in securing funds 
>>>for
> bail outs!"
>>>
>>>The liberals understand spending in the past has pulled bad economies up.
>>> When they don't understand is what spending. During WWII much
>>>industry  was working for the government. The government pumped a huge
>>>amount of  money into the country for the war. When the war was over,
>>>industry had  to re-start for post war production but industry
>>>(corporations) had money  because of war funding. What happened next? We
> had an economic boom!!!
>>>
>>>In the 50's Eisenhower nearly bankrupting this country building highways.
>>> But what did the money do? It went to corporations building
>>>infrastructure but more importantly, it opened a door to commerce this
>>>country never had. The highways opened the doors for companies
>>>nationwide  to do business like they never had before. This created
>>>the boom called  the Roaring 50's!
>>>
>>>It is common knowledge that wars (no there is no real comparison of
>>>the  Iraq conflict to a real war) and infrastructure expansion such as
>>>highways both increase our national debt substantially but also kick
>>>start the economy.
>>>
>>>The liberals see that and think spending money kick starts the economy
>>>but look at what the liberals have done over the last few years?
>>>Expanded  government and shored up the union base. Much of the
>>>expanded government  went to states which not only expanded the state
>>>government but required  that when the stimulus money ran out in a
>>>year or two the states would  have to continue the funding!!! It is
>>>really a sly move. The government  spends a one time check to make
>>>your state government larger and then  expects the states to keep it
> larger when the government money runs out.
>>> Expansion of government shifting the cost. Now the stimulous 2 obama
>>>is  touting it trying to shore up the states and unions longer so the
>>>states  don't drop the funding.
>>>
>>>The spending from WWII and from the highway system launched some of
>>>the  best economies this country ahs ever had. What did the stimulus
>>>spending  do? Shored up unions, expanded government, and stopped this
>>>economy in  it';s tracks. Instead of helping people and corporations
>>>create jobs, it  expected the corporations and and those who create
>>>jobs to pay more of  their fair share.
>>>
>>>In effect the stimulus not only burned a buttload of cash for no good
>>>reason but it brought this economy to it's knees. Now we have debt our
>>>children and grand children will never able to pay. There is no way we
>>>can inflate our way out of what was spent this time around!!
>>>
>>>There is little if any discernible difference between unions and a
>>>liberal government.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ken Green wrote:
>>>> Doug,
>>>>          The auto workers scored billions in the government bailout
>>>>of  GM, and scored again on getting out of Nationalized Health care
>>>>(AKA  Obamacare).  Tenured union teachers get to keep their jobs
>>>>unless they  kill or rape a student.  It sounds like the government
>>>>has sold out to  the unions more than to corporations.  AND, Wall
>>>>Street folks gave more  to dems than to reps.           But I think
>>>>the problem is BIG  government, regardless of who is in the White
>>>>House.  When the  government spends money, the middle class gets 
>>>>screwed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>
>>>> To: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michael at michaelshortt.com>
>>>> Cc: de tomaso digest <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 6:39 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions? (was: Re: Something to shoot for
>>>> (NPC))
>>>>
>>>> michael sez:
>>>> 1. Unions were once upon a time a good thing, I think that time has
>>>> passed.
>>>> doug s. sez:
>>>> - unfortunately, cuz government has sold out to the corporations -
>>>> aiding and abetting their goals in item #'s 2 & 3 below, not
>>>> regulating them for the benefit of all society - unions are one of
>>>> the few tools left.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> michael sez:
>>>> 2. Corporations exist to create wealth for shareholders.  It is
>>>> management's sole duty to maximize profits, however they are not
>>>> required to be good citizens or have any loyalty to our country. I
>>>> feel this is a fundamental flaw and should be of prime consideration
>>>> to those who invest personally and on behalf of others with pension
>>>> funds, 401ks, etc.  3. Management should be compensated based on
>>>> real profits, not valuations, or other means of manipulating numbers
>>>> to look like income.  REAL MONEY.  I like a formula that is open for 
>>>> all
> to see.
>>>> doug s. sez:
>>>> - i agree w/the above items 2 & 3.  and i am ok w/it, too.  as long
>>>> as there's something to keep them reined in.  the govt used to do
>>>> it, but that's been effectively eliminated over the past 30 years.
>>>> now the govt is in the corporations' pockets; and there's no one
>>>> left to control them...  :>/  certainly most of those who inwest are
>>>> not gonna do it, or are ewen capable of doing it if they wanted to.
>>>> management, for the most part compensates itself totally unregulated
>>>> - it's an incestuous little club, w/everyone sitting on everyone
>>>> else's executive boards, scratching each other's backs, paying each
>>>> other ludicrous amounts of money, and paying them even more when
>>>> they get fired and are losing money.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> michael sez:
>>>> 4. Union workers in many cases need a reality check.  There are
>>>> dudes who work for GM who make $65.00 an hour to clean The bathroom
>>>> because they have been doing it for 20 years.  WISE TF UP. A job has
>>>> a value, period.  Just because you're too stupid, dumb or lazy to do
>>>> anything else doesn't mean that your job is a career.  Either cross
>>>> train, get an education or move on.   Just because you're still
>>>> there doesn't make the original 15.00 an hour job any more valuable.
>>>> doug s. sez:
>>>> - of course no one should be making $65 an hour to clean the
>>>> bathroom.  and, seriously, i don't think this is really what's
>>>> happening.  i am sure there are a small minority of union folks at
>>>> gm who are overpaid for what they do.  but, that's not the problem.
>>>> for the most part, unions simply help their members keep up
>>>> w/inflation...  and i certainly believe that they would not be
>>>> needed so much - if the government were able to better regulate
> corporations.
>>>>
>>>> of course any corporation will off-shore its work if it is allowed
>>>> to have children work in sweat shops, allowed to have unsafe
>>>> workplaces w/no health ins, no overtime, pay its workers $100/month
>>>> instead of $100/day, no workmen's comp, no unemployment ins or
>>>> social security, let miners breathe coal dust, etc etc, etc.  if the
>>>> federal government does not put a stop to it, who will?!?  or do you
>>>> think american workers should simply agree to accept these same
>>>> working conditions here?  then we can be "competitive"!  yippee!  we
>>>> can go back to the late 1800's!  yippee!  give the corporations more
>>>> power, less regulation!  yippee!  you know, when the unions gained
>>>> some power to help the workers?  we could go full circle!  :>/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> unfortunately, i see wery little in the govt to turn things around.
>>>> initially, barack talked a good game, so much so that the oligarchs
>>>> started calling him a communist or a socialist.  many of his
>>>> "conservative" detractors still do.  i wish!?!  he's sold out to big
>>>> biz in a huge way - the banks, wall street, the insurance companies,
>>>> the oil companies, the drug mfr's...  and his "opposition"?  all
>>>> they want is to deregulate the corporations even more!?!  ya, it's
>>>> all this "regulation" that caused the economic meltdown!?!  let the
>>>> corporations have more power, less regulation, cut taxes even more!
>>>> ya, let's put out the fire w/gasoline!?!  :>/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ymmv,
>>>>
>>>> doug s.,
>>>> #2602
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: "michael at michaelshortt.com" <michaelsavga at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: doug sedon <sedond at yahoo.com>
>>>>> Cc: "detomaso at realbig.com" <detomaso at realbig.com>; "gow2 at rc-tech.net"
>>>>> <gow2 at rc-tech.net>
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:22 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] unions? (was: Re: Something to shoot for
>>>>> (NPC))
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Doug, To be honest, I'm unsure of your position on the viability of
>>>>> unions.
>>>>> Let me be clear about my views.
>>>>> 1. Unions were once upon a time a good thing, I think that time has
>>>>> passed.
>>>>> 2. Corporations exist to create wealth for shareholders.  It is
>>>>> management's sole duty to maximize profits, however they are not
>>>>> required to be good citizens or have any loyalty to our country. I
>>>>> feel this is a fundamental flaw and should be of prime
>>>>> consideration to those who invest personally and on behalf of
>>>>> others with pension funds, 401ks, etc.  3. Management should be
>>>>> compensated based on real profits, not valuations, or other means
>>>>> of manipulating numbers to look like income.  REAL MONEY.  I like a
>>>>> formula that is open for all to see.
>>>>> 4. Union workers in many cases need a reality check.  There are
>>>>> dudes who work for GM who make $65.00 an hour to clean The bathroom
>>>>> because they have been doing it for 20 years.  WISE TF UP. A job
>>>>> has a value, period.  Just because you're too stupid, dumb or lazy
>>>>> to do anything else doesn't mean that your job is a career.  Either
>>>>> cross train, get an education or move on.   Just because you're
>>>>> still there doesn't make the original 15.00 an hour job any more
> valuable.
>>>>> Michael Shortt
>>>>>
>>>>>
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