[DeTomaso] 351C hydraulic roller lifters and steel distributor gears
Mad Dog Antenucci
teampantera at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 8 00:50:14 EDT 2010
Dan,
Definately a 'save' post. Thanks for all you do to support the List.
PS. Let me know when you are coming back to the sandbox.....its cooling down! ;-)}
Mad Dawg Antenucci
Team Pantera Racing
The 1st & still the only vintage race team in open road racing
www.teampanteraracing.com
--- On Tue, 9/7/10, Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel C Jones <daniel.c.jones2 at gmail.com>
Subject: [DeTomaso] 351C hydraulic roller lifters and steel distributor gears
To: "frd460 at misn.com" <FRD460 at misn.com>, "Pantera REALBIG forum" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Date: Tuesday, September 7, 2010, 10:17 AM
Tim Meyer recently sent me a set of Lunati's small block Ford hydraulic roller
lifters and new 351C/351M/400/429/460 Everwear distributor gear to compare with
the Crane hydraulic roller lifters and steel distributor gears we've been
using. The Crane retrofit link bar lifters and steel 351C distributor gears
were out of production while Crane was out of business but Crane is under new
management and currently shipping these parts. Prices have gone up though,
with the Crane link bar lifters now $635.95 and the distributor gears are
$71.95 from Summit.
351C/351M/400 lifter bores are shorter than those in later 5.0L engines that
were designed for hydraulic roller lifters and there can be a couple of issues
when retrofitting hydraulic roller lifters in these engines. Some 351C blocks
can use the OEM dimension lifters on standard base circle cams. Other blocks,
like this one:
http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery2/v/hidden/dan/dan-cars/album04/dyno_project/Lifter+Bore+Chamfer.JPG.html
have a large chamfer at the top of the lifter bores. With a standard base
circle cam, at maximum lobe lift, the oil band on the lifters can be pushed up
into the chamfer at the top of the lifter bores. If one were to run such an
engine, it would bleed oil pressure out the lifter bores. There are three ways
to fix this. One is to reduce the base circle of the cam so the lifter is
lower in bore. That's what Comp Cams does with their 351C hydraulic roller
cams but that can also have problems. As a rule, regardless of how much lift
a camshaft has, the lifters generally all stop in approximately the same
location at the top, unless the base circle is reduced which can cause problems
at the other end of the lifter bores. Also, there can be interference problems
with the dogbones contacting the block which may require grinding on the block
(or the use of link bar lifters). The second is to use a lifter with a lower
oil band location. Some of the aftermarket SBF hydraulic roller lifters like
those from Crane and Lunati have an oil band that extends lower down the lifter
body and is not exposed at max lift. The third solution is to bush the lifter
bores with taller sleeves.
The Lunati lifters are much less expensive than the Cranes but it appears they
will work in all 351C blocks with standard base circle cams:
http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery2/v/hidden/dan/dan-cars/album04/dyno_project/Lunati_vs_Crane_Hydraulic_Roller_lifters_03.JPG.html
http://www.bacomatic.org/gallery2/v/hidden/dan/dan-cars/album04/dyno_project/Lunati_vs_Crane_Hydraulic_Roller_lifters_04.JPG.html
Note the link bar is farther from the roller so they should work on reduced
base circle cams without any block contact issues (the Cranes usually do as
well). The Lunatis are fully shrouded around the roller axle and at the top of
the lifter so they look quite strong. The downside is the Lunatis are heavier
than the Crane lifters. I measured the Crane lifters at 280 grams on a not
too precise kitchen spring scale and the Lunatis at 330 grams. According to
Lunati, the lifter pictured is part of their less expensive street series and
is limited to 6200 to 6500 RPM. Lunati also offers a higher performance range
of hydraulic roller lifters that are priced closer to the Cranes but their
catalog does not currently list a part number for the SBF.
In general, hydraulic roller lifters don't rev as high as flat tappets for a
given spring pressure. The Cleveland's heavy valves and 1.73:1 rocker ratio
only makes things worse. There are several things that can help extend the RPM
range:
1. Better lifters (Crane link bars, short travel versions, Sherman
modified Ford)
2. Better springs and lighter retainers (beehives with nickel size
titanium retainers)
3. Lighter valves (titanium or Ferrea hollow stem steel)
4. Tailored lobes (for RPM and/or large rocker ratios)
5. Pre-Load (3/4 to 1 full turn on standard travel lifters)
6. Rev kit
David Vizard has tested the Crane link bar lifters against the OEM Ford lifters
(in a 5.0L) and said the Ford lifter bodies flex, changing the internal
metering. According to Vizard, with higher spring pressures, the Crane's were
worth 400 to 500 RPM. A friend has run them to 8800 RPM in a SBF with all the
tricks (titanium valves, solid roller springs, AFM high rev lobes, etc.).
Vizard also suggested Comp's BBC beehive springs were worth additional RPM over
conventional springs. In addition to the Comp Cams, Pac is another source for
beehives:
http://www.pacracing.com/beehive.html
They have a range of beehive springs for higher lifts:
0.650" lift beehive springs, 313 and 350 lb/in rates
0.700" lift beehive springs 408 lb/in
0.750" lift beehive springs 313 lb/in
Most of the cam companies have torque lobes and RPM lobes, the latter should be
used with high rocker ratios and higher RPM cams. Lighter valves and retainers
also help. Also, Cliff Sherman modifies the OEM Ford lifters and one of the
forum members ran those in his 351C and picked up 400 RPM. He wrote:
"The Sherman lifters are something that should be bought right away.
They are simply AWESOME!!! I picked up my peak hp by a little over
500rpm with just the lifter change. The OEM lifters started falling
off at about 6800rpms and after the lifter change, power was flat
until my limiter at 7200rpms. The idle got a little rougher with the
Shermans too. I'd definitely recommend them."
Alex Denysenko sells these and mentioned they are capable of 8000+ RPM.
I wanted to try them but they are based upon FRPP R302 lifters which
require the dogbones and wouldn't work in our 351C block due to the lifter
bore chamfer issue.
I thought I'd take this opportunity to survey all of the link bar lifters
available for the 351C. In alphabetical order:
Comp Cams
Pro Magnum Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Lifters P/N #8931-16 for small block Ford
$529.95 from Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-8931-16/
"These COMP Cams Pro Magnum hydraulic roller lifters are specifically designed
to perform at higher engine speeds. When engines are equipped with a
hydraulic roller camshaft, high rpm is limited by the improper positioning of
the internal piston, as the lifter inevitably "pumps up." This improper
location results in broken valves, and, therefore, leads to lost power or
sometimes even engine failure. These lifters offer a distinct advantage over
standard high-performance hydraulic lifters, especially in race applications
where a hydraulic lifter must be used. These lifters resist lifter "pump up,
therefore increasing the engine's upper rpm limit. The new Pro Magnum
Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Lifters are true drop-in replacement components for
those switching over to a hydraulic roller valve train and do not require any
type of lifter bore or other engine modification prior to use."
We tried a set of the Comp link bar hydraulic roller lifters and they looked
like very nice pieces but have the OEM location for the oil band and did not
work with our standard base circle cam in a 351C block with the large lifter
bore chamfer.
Crane (P/N 36532)
$635.95 from Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-36532-16/
"Crane hydraulic roller lifters are designed for easy installation without
machining on late model blocks, and they feature check-ball internal valving
to prevent pump-up. They're precision CNC-machined, and many are equipped
with Crane's anti-rotation guide bars. These lifters are available in an OE
version, and in a retrofit version for vehicles without OE hydraulic roller
lifters."
The Crane link bar hydraulic roller lifters do work with standard base circle
cams in all 351C blocks we've tested.
Crower
$219.95 from Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRO-66335-16/
At first, these appeared to be the least expensive of the link bars lifters.
However, I suspect these are not link bar lifters, even though Summit's site
shows a picture of a link bar lifter. The caption underneath says "Image is
a representation of this part. Actual part may vary." I downloaded Crower's
2010 catalog and it does not show any images, either. However, Summit's
website lists the link bar as "OEM" which indicates to me these use the
dogbones, not link bars.
Edelbrock
$552.95 from Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-97453/
"These retrofit lifters are designed for hydraulic roller lifter cams, in
non-roller engine blocks originally equipped with conventional lifters.
Erson/PBM
SL962 Street Series Vertical Tie-Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters for small block
Ford
$319.50 from USA Performance (list price from PBM?)
http://www.usaperform.com/street-series-hydraulic-roller-lifters-ford-retrofit-p-822.html
"Small Block Ford Retro-Fit Street Series Hydraulic Roller Lifters fit all SB
Ford Windsor & Cleveland blocks 260-289-302-351-400 cid. They will also fit
aftermarket blocks such as Dart. They are very affordable and are ideal for
Street Performance.
* Tie-Bar Style
* Precision formed bodies
* Bodies are carbonitrided and tempered
* Roller wheels hardened steel alloy
* Roller pins posi-locked in place
* .700 wheel
RL962 Pro Race Vertical Tie-Bar Hydraulic Roller Lifters for small block Ford
$542.84 list price from PBM
http://www.pbmperformance.com/store.php?catId=420
$479.50 from USA Performance
http://www.usaperform.com/lifters-hydraulic-roller-lifters-c-154_207_252.html
"Pro Race Hydraulic Roller Lifters are manufactured from billet alloy steel
and machined to exact tolerances and then heat-treated for unparalled wear
resistance. Eaton style oil metering design for precision oil control. Roller
wheels are manufactured from high strength alloy and are .750" diameter for
correct cam geometry with full 360 degree wide contact area on camshaft.
Through heat-treated steel axles are the strongest in the business. Tie-bars
are heat-treated stainless steel with steel buttons precision formed for
permanent attachment."
Dave Mclain spoke with a guy at PBM and he said that the race version is just
a higher quality lifter than the street version. It also has a .750" roller
and that's probably ok as long as the cam grinder knows that a larger roller
is being used. Otherwise it tends to change the duration and dynamics of the
lobe which, depending on the base circle, can be pretty substantial.
FRPP
Ford used to sell the Crane link bar lifters via the FRPP catalog:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-6500-S58/
These are shown as not currently available.
Howards
$317.95 from Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HRS-91168/
"Howards Cams Street series retrofit hydraulic roller lifters are designed
for street performance enthusiasts who want to upgrade to a hydraulic roller
camshaft. They are manufactured to fit early or late model blocks, including
blocks with tall lifter bosses. Howards Cams uses cold form technology to
shape their bodies for durability. The lifters are then carbonitrided and
tempered for hardness. They also feature hardened and tempered steel alloy
roller wheels, heat-treated stainless steel cross bars, and high-alloy steel
tie bar buttons. Howards Cams Street series retrofit hydraulic roller
lifters are made in the USA and are specifically designed for street
applications up to 6500 rpm."
Isky
Small Block Ford V8 3860-HYRT Performance Series (0.875 diameter) link bar
lifters.
Russ Fulp (B.L. Machine & Russ Fulp Racing Engines) has used these and says
they are the same as the Howards lifters, except the link bar says Isky on it.
Jegs
$449.99 http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/20820/10002/-1
JEGS #555-20820 Retrofit Hydraulic Roller Lifters Ford (1962-87 289, 302, 351W,
1970-82 351 C/M 400 & Boss)
The image shown looks identical to the Crane link bars but never trust the
images.
Lunati
Part Number: 72335LUN Jobber Price: $382.92 ($379.95 from Tim Meyer)
See link to pictures above.
"These Lunati Street Performance retro-fit hydraulic roller lifters feature a
captured link bar system to ensure precise lifter movement and are reasonably
priced thanks to modern Cold Casting Technology and offer exceptional
durability and performance for engines with a maximum operating range of
6200-6500 RPM."
Note Lunati also lists "High RPM Hydraulic Roller Lifters" but does not
currently list a small block Ford part number.
"The internal hydraulics of standard roller lifters are susceptible to pumping
up around 6200-6500 RPM, causing horsepower robbing valve float along with
the possibility of severe valvetrain damage. If you're looking for the most
dependable and best performing hydraulic roller available, upgrade to a
Lunati High RPM Hydraulic Roller Lifter and get the RPM capabilities similar
to a solid roller with the long, maintenance free life of a hydraulic roller."
Morel
Morel doesn't sell directly to the public but is likely the manufacturer for
several of the lifters listed here. They may have a street lifter and a race
hydraulic roller lifter. Ed Curtis said "Isky and Crower now use these as
their top shelf stuff." The race version has a billet steel body, not cast
iron like some of the others.
Scorpion
$465.95 (standard travel) from Summit
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCC-SRPST2212SBR/
"Scorpion retrofit hydraulic roller lifters feature cold-forged steel bodies
that are heat-treated for exceptional wear resistance. A precision-ground
needle roller bearing with a high-chromium steel axle provides long life and
minimal friction."
$506.95 (short travel) from Summit
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SCC-SRPST2212SBR/
"These made-in-the-USA lifters are crafted from cold-forged billet steel for
exceptional wear resistance. They feature a precision-ground needle roller
bearing with a high-chromium steel axle for minimal friction. Due to
Scorpion's attention to details, these lifters' precision-ground and fitted
billet piston offers controlled leakdown and pump-up, shorter plunger travel
for better reaction at higher rpm, and exact oil metering to ensure proper
lubing to the rocker arms without losing oil pressure. Along with their
lightweight design, which equals less resistance, every lifter is tested
--not batch tested--to make sure that your engine sings. Replace your lifters
with the sound of quality from Scorpion short travel retrofit hydraulic
roller lifters. The above lifters are designed with reduced hydraulic plunger
travel. 1/8 to 1/4 Turn of preload is recommended. 0.030 lifter preload
maximum. Caution: Requires the use of a roller cam, custom length pushrods
and a thrust button."
Trick Flow
$429.95 from Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFS-21400006/
Summit, Comp, Ford (FRPP), Federal Mogul (Sealed Power), Melling, TFS, Crane,
Crower, Lunati and Howards also offer the OEM style individual hydraulic roller
lifters which use a dogbones and spider kit like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-86140-1/?rtype=10
Comp has a version that are short travel:
$235.95 from Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-877-16/).
"These COMP Cams short travel race hydraulic roller lifters have been
engineered from a patent-pending design that specifically performs at higher
engine speeds. They are designed to limit the lifter's internal piston as
it is pumped up. By limiting that movement, the COMP Cams short travel race
hydraulic roller lifters cut down on the loss of power and limit valvetrain
failure at higher rpm. The lifters are REM-finished and then black oxide
coated for extreme durability, even for those high-revving engines."
Note that Comp's link bar lifters are not advertised as "short travel" like
the OEM style ones above.
Rhoads even makes a range of their fast bleed lifters in the OEM 5.0L style
hydraulic roller lifters:
$273.99 P/N 1008 OEM replacements with hugher bleed rate.
$308.99 P/N 1008L (Rhoads Original Super Lube OE Roller Lifters)
Same as 1008 except adds a groove down the length of the lifter
body to provide oil the cam at the lifter face.
$311.95 P/N 1008X (Rhoads V-Max Roller Lifters)
Adjustable version of 1008. "Rhoads V-Max roller lifters are fully
adjustable and require an adjustable valve train. Adjustment is similar
to solid lifters, simply use a feeler gauge to adjust the exact amount
of lift reduction you want, anywhere from .010" to .030", and that is
exactly what you get at idle. Duration is reduced between 5 and 20
degrees at .050 in. lift depending on the adjustment. "
$344.99 RHL-1008XL Rhoads V-Max Super Lube Roller Lifters
Same as 1008C but adds a groove down the length of the lifter body to
provide oil the cam at the lifter face.
FWIW, Vizard has tested the Rhoads flat tappet lifters and said they do reduce
the effective duration at low RPM but do not impart full duration and lift
at higher RPM. They can also be noisy.
So much for the lifters. In addition to the bronze and cast iron gears, there
are three steel gears currently available for the 351C/351M/400/429/460 series
engines.
1. Crane steel distributor gear
$71.95 from Summit http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-52971-1/
Crane has a steel gear which they claim is compatible with induction hardened
or carburized steel roller cores, as well as iron flat tappet cores. They
list two part numbers for 351C distributors:
52970-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.500" shaft diameter
52971-1 Ford V-8 70-82, Boss 351-351C-351M-400 for 0.531" shaft diameter
Crane does not recommend the use of their gears on camshafts that have been
previously run with other types or materials of gears. We have used the
Crane gears in several steel cam Clevelands.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-52971-1/
"Crane Cams offers a variety of precision-machined, steel distributor gears
for people using steel roller camshafts. These steel distributor gears
feature a modern heat-treating and manufacturing process that makes them
compatible with steel cams. Roller cams are made of either induction-hardened
or carburized steel. Neither of these materials is compatible with the stock
distributor gears. In the past, bronze distributor gears were used, but for
street applications, the bronze gears wear at an excessive rate and have to
be replaced on a regular basis. Crane Cams now makes it possible to use a
steel distributor gear that provides an OEM-style lifespan without damaging
the cam."
The Crane gear was also sold under an FRPP part number previously
(P/N M-12390-J, 1.421" OD, 0.531" ID, for 351C) in the FRPP catalog.
From page 105 of the 2005 FRPP catalog: "Steel gears are compatible with
billet steel camshafts (hydraulic roller type)". Comp Cams also claims
the Ford gears are compatible with their -8 austempered ductile iron
hydraulic roller cam cores (Comp also uses the -8 cores for some solid
street roller cams but uses steel cam cores for race solid rollers).
According to MSD, the Ford mild steel distributor gears (as fitted to
engines with factory hydraulic-roller-cams) are softer than the common
ductile iron gears, but harder than bronze. MSD also claims that Chevy
uses a harder cam core for it's factory hydraulic rollers and uses cast
iron gears but that its gears don't last as long as the Ford gears.
Some 5.0L Ford racers have used the Ford gear on steel cam cores without
incident but Ford does not explicitly recommended it.
2. Lunati steel distributor gear
https://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=2556&gid=311
"These Lunati Everwear distributor gears were developed with a new material
that has excellent wear characteristics. The Lunati Everwear distributor
gears feature a special nitride process to case-harden the gear, protecting
against premature failure. The camshaft industry uses 1050, 5150, 5160,
8620, 8650, and 8660 materials for most steel camshaft cores. With the use
of these Lunati Everwear distributor gears, you will eliminate any issues
of compatibility or wear.
3. Mallory steel distributor gear (Ford 351C Part Numbers 29420 and 29420PD
(replaces #28653)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-29420/
29420 $33.95
29420PD $37.95
Mallory makes a distributor gear for their distributors that is made
specifically for "austempered ductile iron billets" and "proferal billet"
cams. "Proferal" is a grade of iron alloy that is used primarily for
non-roller camshafts because of its excellent anti-wear characteristics.
Austempering is a heat treatment process applied to cast irons to make
them harder. According to Mallory:
"Mallory Distributor Gears are precision machined from alloy steel in our
factory to exacting original equipment specifications. Special attention
is given to the heat treating requirements of each gear to assure the
proper hardness, giving trouble free service when used with proferal billet
(hydraulic and mechanical flat tappet) and selectively austempered ductile
iron billet (hydraulic roller tappet) camshafts."
The Mallory gear should be compatible with the Comp Cams austempered iron
roller cam cores and are available in 0.490", 0.500" and 0.531" ID. The
0.490" diameter gear is the only one available for a Cleveland in that size
and is used by Accel on some of their distributors (other Accels use 0.500").
I called Accel (part of Mr. Gasket) and was given the Mallory part number
for Mallory's steel alloy 351C gear (p/n 29420). Accel said it would do
the job with a steel 1010 cam core but Mallory's catalog (and Accel's)
specifically mentions only heat treated iron cam cores only. Since the
gear was not specifically designed for the 1010 core we were using, Orville
Burg took one of the gears to a machine shop that makes gears and they
Brinnell tested it. It was quite hard and it also spits sparks when you
grind on it, unlike a cast iron gear. We ran the gear on the dyno 393C
and after initial inspection it looked fine but we don't have many miles
on it yet.
I also noticed MSD is showing a steel gear on some 351C distributors:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-83501/?rtype=10
I'm not sure if that is an MSD part or sourced from one of the manufacturers
above.
Dan Jones
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