[DeTomaso] ZERO PC - Maxim #1: People vote their pocket book! NPC

Sun Nov 7 22:02:55 EST 2010

Rob,

    I pretty much agree with you on all of this, but need to point out that unless something changes significantly, for all intents and purposes, social security and medicare deductions are a federal income tax.  The money we pay into it does not go into a fund reserved for us, it just gets spent like the rest of federal income tax.  

    I hear Republicans talk about the need for major cuts to social security benefits, but they better cut all the federal pensions by the same percentage along with social security, or it's time for another revolution.

Ken

--- On Sun, 11/7/10, Rob Dumoulin <rob at dumoulins.net> wrote:

From: Rob Dumoulin <rob at dumoulins.net>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZERO PC - Maxim #1: People vote their pocket book! NPC
To: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
Cc: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>, "Larry Finch" <fresnofinches at aol.com>, detomaso at realbig.com
Date: Sunday, November 7, 2010, 2:16 PM

Documentation Provided.  The number is actually 47% of Americans do not pay
Federal Income Tax.  Choose your source.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/47-Percent-Dont-Pay-Taxes-No-Big-Deal-3230

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1
<http://www.theatlanticwire.com/opinions/view/opinion/47-Percent-Dont-Pay-Taxes-No-Big-Deal-3230>

On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 3:42 PM, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't want to make this more complicated then it already is but.
>  Where do you come up with the statistic that says 40% of Americans pay no
> income tax? That's the kind of statement that demands documentation.
> I am a strong believer in the capitalist system and I am heavily invested
> in the stock market. I don't have a problem with a corporate officer
> receiving substantial compensation when they have done a good job and made
> the company and share holders a fair return on their investment. What drives
> me crazy is when CEO's get obscene golden parachutes for running a company
> into the ground. AIG comes to mind. Back in the 70's a friend of mine worked
> for eastern airlines. The company went into bankruptcy and Frank Boreman
> (the astronaut) was the CEO. He raided the companies pension fund and
> depleted it leaving the pilots and all the other employees with no pensions,
> yet Mr. Borman walked away with several million dollars in a golden
> parachute. The list of these examples is endless. If the company makes money
> the share holders should make money and the corporate bigwigs should make
> money. If the company loses money or worse goes broke the Board members
> shouldn't be rewarded. In fact they should be required to keep a substantial
> amount of their net worth in stock so if the company fails they will suffer
> along with the rest of the share holders. Like wise their compensation
> should be tied to increases in the stocks value in the form of stock options
> not by taking huge cash payments or raiding corporate coffers or pension
> funds.
>
> Boyd
>
> On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 1:24 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Guys,
>>
>>     Just to add one hopefully neutral point, the profits in a business are
>> from two sources:
>>
>> 1)  the money you make for your personal labor
>>
>> 2)  the return on your investment.
>>
>>     Personally, I think the million plus a year compensation some
>> corporate officers receive is totally unjustified, and a lot of people work
>> just as hard and are just as smart, and make a fraction of that.  But if
>> someone builds a business over many years and has a huge personal investment
>> in it, I don't a problem with them benefiting from their investment.  You
>> might work 20 years and not make much, and then do really well the last 10
>> years to build for retirement.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> --- On Thu, 11/4/10, Rob Dumoulin <rob at dumoulins.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Rob Dumoulin <rob at dumoulins.net>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] ZERO PC - Maxim #1: People vote their pocket book!
>> NPC
>> To: "Larry Finch" <fresnofinches at aol.com>
>> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
>> Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 10:16 AM
>>
>>
>> Emotions at the door.
>>
>> Wow Larry.  That sure was an anti-capitalistic view on corporations. It
>> sure
>> sounds familiar.  As an owner of two small businesses and a business
>> analyst
>> consultant for many very large corporations that all of you have done
>> business with, I have an opposing opinion. Based on your response, I'm
>> assuming you have never run a business. Sorry if that is an incorrect
>> assumption.
>>
>> A common fallacy that "takers" or "have not" mentalities hold is that all
>> businesses should be taxed, especially ones that make lots of revenue (not
>> profit, which is a difference). Running a business and paying payroll
>> requires a business plan.  In that plan is how to make enough money to
>> make
>> the venture survive or hopefully grow, and keep investors interested
>> (others
>> or yourself if you own the business). Companies don't really pay taxes.
>> Introduce unions demands and taxes and in order to meet the business plan,
>> you have to raise your prices or cut your expenses. Cutting expenses
>> incorrectly has the opposite effect by reducing your ability to raise
>> revenue.  Raising costs in this way make US businesses not able to compete
>> globally.  Like it or not, Unions have killed education quality and the US
>> auto industry already.  Let the free market manage wages and let OSHA
>> handle
>> the safety concerns.
>>
>> I have often heard people cry out that companies should be taxed for
>> moving
>> jobs overseas.  Remove the existing taxes and they would have little
>> reason
>> to move jobs overseas.
>>
>> About to rejoin my emotions at the door.
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Larry Finch <fresnofinches at aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Maxim #1: People vote their pocket book!
>> > ----------
>> >
>> > Not really true.
>> >
>> > People vote what they 'feel' is their pocket book.
>> >
>> > This feeling is easily manipulated by demonizing the one Special
>> Interest
>> > that ultimately
>> > DOES (and historically always has) improve the bottom line for the
>> workers
>> > ---- Unions.
>> >
>> > While at the same time martyrizing the diametrically opposed Special
>> > Interest that
>> > has arguably zero interest in improving the workers position if it
>> > interferes in any manner
>> > with the unbending goal of profit-at-any-cost ---- Corporations.
>> >
>> > The use of buzzwords such as higher taxes, government restrictions,
>> > government regulations, Union Bosses
>> > and other phrases solely designed to appeal to emotions have (sadly)
>> been
>> > shown to be very effective in
>> > moving the Common Man (which is certainly most of us) to think (and
>> vote)
>> > as if he is somehow
>> > protecting and improving his own position when in fact he is only
>> > benefiting the corporations.
>> >
>> > The in-your-face examples of how true this is are sadly hidden (by
>> design)
>> > from most voters by the cloud of
>> > buzzword phrases heaped onto us with now nearly unlimited
>> > Corporation-funded advertising campaigns.
>> >
>> > NAFTA - Free (not Fair) Trade - outsourcing - downsizing - Pension
>> Raiders
>> > - part-time employment with
>> > thus no benefits - privatizing -  Military Industrial Complex - tax
>> > loopholes - offshore registering of Corporations -
>> > S&L scandal - Wall Street Greed...........
>> >
>> > The evidence is obvious this all is designed to benefit Corporations,
>> and
>> > none of it ever "Trickles Down" to the Common Man.
>> >
>> > But the Common Man is easily swayed with slickly-packaged,
>> > demographically-tuned appeals to his emotions.
>> >
>> > And if this continues there will be no Common Man left to remember what
>> the
>> > American Middle Class used to be.
>> >
>> > Larry
>> >
>> > P.S. - If you respond to this, try leaving your emotional, name-calling
>> > rants at the door. I did.  ;-)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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-- 
Rob DuMoulin
904.476.8744
rob at dumoulins.net
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