[DeTomaso] Sway Bar Mounts on A-arms

Kirby Schrader kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Sun May 9 13:50:20 EDT 2010 

Gray,

Good point. I assumed that the sphere-balls were the Heim joints mentioned...
My bad...

So Boyd, which is it?  :-)

I would think the heim joints would have to allow the bar to slide through it based on the geometry. This is what the sphere-balls/bars do.

Kirby

On 9 May 2010, at 9:05 AM, Gray Gregory wrote:

> I have one of the adjustable sway bars on the front of the race car. It offers a lot of adjustability and works great and it does use hiem joints at the a-arms. 
> 
> If I read Boyd's original post correctly he was considering modifying the sway bar mounting to heim joints not sphere-balls? While the sphere-ball is heim like I'm not sure we're talking apples and apples here?
> 
> Gray
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On Behalf Of Will Kooiman
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:53 AM
> To: 'Kirby Schrader'; 'boyd casey'
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sway Bar Mounts on A-arms
> 
> I'm another member in the choir, though.
> 
> I've driven my car on the street - a lot.  It was my daily driver for a long
> time, and as soon as I get it back together it will be again.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I have the same setup as Kirby.  I've never witnessed any
> evil handling on the street.  I haven't driven it on the track - not really.
> I've done a couple of open road races, and I've been on a track, but I
> haven't raced on a track.
> 
> My front sway bar bracket broke once, though.  It was the original bracket,
> and at the time I had the original a-arm mounts.  I replaced the bracket
> with an aluminum bracket from Hall, and I replaced the a-arm mount with a
> sphere-ball mount from Quella.  It no breaky since.  It also stopped
> squeeking with the sphere-ball mount.
> 
> My rear a-arm mount had been welded to the a-arm by a previous owner.  It
> has been repaired, but apparently he had problems with it breaking.
> 
> My opinion is that hollow bars, billet mounts, and sphere ball a-arm mounts
> are excellent.  Adjustable bars would be one step up, but probably only
> needed if you are tracking the car.  They certainly aren't needed for street
> driving.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
> Behalf Of Kirby Schrader
> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:20 AM
> To: boyd casey
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sway Bar Mounts on A-arms
> 
> 
> Woodhouse had a swaybar setup that would do just that. Dunno' if anybody
> still sells them or not.
> And, from what I had heard, it wasn't cheap either... Try Cory Gelling? I
> don't even know if he still messes with Pantera stuff.
> 
> By the way, don't take my word for 'gospel'.... just giving you my
> experience. 
> The pro racers obviously should know what they're talking about!
> :-)
> 
> Regards,
> Kirby
> 
> On 9 May 2010, at 7:53 AM, boyd casey wrote:
> 
>> I can't argue with you or agree with you because I have no practical
> experience to draw from. My concerns are strictly the result of the input
> from my advisor (who has lots of actual experience on the race track as both
> a driver and fabricator (although little or none of it comes from Panteras,
> although I don't think that is a concerning issue at this time.) Gorans
> statement about worrying more about making the sway bar adjustable instead
> of worrying about absolutes has peaked my curiosity. How does one go about
> making it adjustable?
>> Boyd
>> 
>> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> 
>> Boyd,
>> 
>> Interesting....
>> 
>> I've been using 1" sway bars front and rear with the plastic heim joints
> on my Pantera since the late 80's.
>> All the bushings are polyurethane and I have the Hall chassis rigidity kit
> installed.
>> 
>> I really like the combination of them all and found the 1" sway bars very
> good on the track, especially when running slicks, and on the street with
> wide tires.
>> 
>> I've taken my car on long trips and, from 1996 until 2001, I used to drive
> the car every day to work and back, generally used it as an everyday driver
> in addition to its weekends on the track. I never felt I had any situations
> where it might be dangerous on the street.
>> 
>> Unless I've never driven on a road surface bad enough to cause a
> problem... Houston's concrete streets with pot holes, bumps, bad repair jobs
> and general unevenness due to settling are pretty bad though...
>> 
>> I personally feel this issue might not be as bad as thought...
>> 
>> FWIW,
>> Kirby
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 8 May 2010, at 11:36 PM, boyd casey wrote:
>> 
>>> That's basically what I am doing. I got poly graphite bushings that I am
>>> using for all my a-arm
>>> bushings and rubber bushings for my sway bars. I was just about to order
> a
>>> pair of heim ball ends for my rear sway bars and my advisor ( this gut
> is a
>>> designer custom fabricator, used to own his own sprint car team and had
> a
>>> business that designed and fabricated turbbo charger and super charger
>>> systems. He has scales and knows how to set up a suspension for full
> race
>>> and how to set up suspwnsion for street cars and everything inbetween. I
> am
>>> having my front upper a-rms modified by johnny woods and he is doing the
>>> modification that increaseses the available caster from the stock 2.5
>>> degress up to the 7.00 degress and they have a built in camber lock. He
> told
>>> me that going with heim balls on the end of my rear sway bars would
> transfer
>>> all the body roll from the whell on one side all the wat to the opposite
>>> whell and could cause a dangerous situation in a street situation where
> the
>>> road surfcae is less then perfect. Since I will be driving mostly on the
>>> street I need to balance that with the ability to adjust the suspension
> for
>>> the track WHEN I NEED IT!. The way he explained it it is better toset up
> for
>>> the street and hve to run on the track then to be set up for the track
> and
>>> run on rough street conditions. The rough conditions can cause one to
> lose
>>> control .
>>> Boyd
>>> 
>>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Dear Boyd,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>        I am no expert, but I think your friend is right.
>>>> 
>>>>        Another point for the rubber bushings was Bob Woodhouse's
>>>> recommendation to use poly urethane all around the suspension *except*
> for
>>>> the front sway bar mounts.   FWIW.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of boyd casey
>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 6:20 PM
>>>> To: JDeRyke at aol.com
>>>> Cc: tborcich at msn.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sway Bar Mounts on A-arms
>>>> 
>>>> I was discussing my suspension modifications and build today with a
> friend
>>>> of mine from my car club who is an expert at race car building and set
> up
>>>> and I mentioned my desire to install 1" sway bars and heim joints. I
> was
>>>> told that this would be ideal for the race track but could cause
> serious
>>>> problems if used on the street and one were to encounter fough road
>>>> conditions. I was told that this set up while being very efficent at
>>>> preventing body roll , but when one encounters rough or uneven road
>>>> surfaces
>>>> the sway bar with heim ball ends it would be very unforgiving in
>>>> transfering
>>>> force from on side of the car to the other  and could result in putting
> the
>>>> car and driver in a very difficult position if either encountered poor
> road
>>>> conditions. He suggested I retain the conventional rubber bushings for
> the
>>>> sway bar.
>>>> Boyd
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 3:29 PM, <JDeRyke at aol.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> In a message dated 5/8/10 10:41:49 AM, tborcich at msn.com writes:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I recall a number of months back someone commented that I should add
>>>>>> additional support to the sway bar mounts on the a-arms because
> theirs
>>>>> pulled
>>>>>> right off the arm from loading?
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, under some circumstances. If you run a big swaybar bar AND
>>>>> polyurethane bar-end bushings AND drive fast on bumpy roads, the poly
>>>>> bushing on the
>>>>> end is so non-compliant it flexes the little bar mount rather than
>>>>> deforming
>>>>> the poly end. Fatigue-cracking follows after a while. So you can weld
> up
>>>>> mount reinforcements, or (better) you can add sphere-ball ends to the
>>>> bars
>>>>> and
>>>>> use poly only for the centeral bar-pivots. This results in much freer
>>>>> antiswaybar action and a lighter more stock suspension. With the
>>>>> sphere-balls
>>>>> installed on both ends of both bars, you can actually feel the
> difference
>>>>> with
>>>>> the same bar! Most of the vendors sell some sort of sphere-ball bar
> ends
>>>>> and
>>>>> they are highly recommended. FWIW- J DeRyke
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