[DeTomaso] Sway Bar Mounts on A-arms

Sun May 9 09:52:31 EDT 2010

I'm another member in the choir, though.

I've driven my car on the street - a lot.  It was my daily driver for a long
time, and as soon as I get it back together it will be again.

I'm pretty sure I have the same setup as Kirby.  I've never witnessed any
evil handling on the street.  I haven't driven it on the track - not really.
I've done a couple of open road races, and I've been on a track, but I
haven't raced on a track.

My front sway bar bracket broke once, though.  It was the original bracket,
and at the time I had the original a-arm mounts.  I replaced the bracket
with an aluminum bracket from Hall, and I replaced the a-arm mount with a
sphere-ball mount from Quella.  It no breaky since.  It also stopped
squeeking with the sphere-ball mount.

My rear a-arm mount had been welded to the a-arm by a previous owner.  It
has been repaired, but apparently he had problems with it breaking.

My opinion is that hollow bars, billet mounts, and sphere ball a-arm mounts
are excellent.  Adjustable bars would be one step up, but probably only
needed if you are tracking the car.  They certainly aren't needed for street
driving.

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of Kirby Schrader
Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 8:20 AM
To: boyd casey
Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sway Bar Mounts on A-arms

Woodhouse had a swaybar setup that would do just that. Dunno' if anybody
still sells them or not.
And, from what I had heard, it wasn't cheap either... Try Cory Gelling? I
don't even know if he still messes with Pantera stuff.

By the way, don't take my word for 'gospel'.... just giving you my
experience. 
The pro racers obviously should know what they're talking about!
:-)

Regards,
Kirby

On 9 May 2010, at 7:53 AM, boyd casey wrote:

> I can't argue with you or agree with you because I have no practical
experience to draw from. My concerns are strictly the result of the input
from my advisor (who has lots of actual experience on the race track as both
a driver and fabricator (although little or none of it comes from Panteras,
although I don't think that is a concerning issue at this time.) Gorans
statement about worrying more about making the sway bar adjustable instead
of worrying about absolutes has peaked my curiosity. How does one go about
making it adjustable?
> Boyd
> 
> On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
wrote:
> 
> Boyd,
> 
> Interesting....
> 
> I've been using 1" sway bars front and rear with the plastic heim joints
on my Pantera since the late 80's.
> All the bushings are polyurethane and I have the Hall chassis rigidity kit
installed.
> 
> I really like the combination of them all and found the 1" sway bars very
good on the track, especially when running slicks, and on the street with
wide tires.
> 
> I've taken my car on long trips and, from 1996 until 2001, I used to drive
the car every day to work and back, generally used it as an everyday driver
in addition to its weekends on the track. I never felt I had any situations
where it might be dangerous on the street.
> 
> Unless I've never driven on a road surface bad enough to cause a
problem... Houston's concrete streets with pot holes, bumps, bad repair jobs
and general unevenness due to settling are pretty bad though...
> 
> I personally feel this issue might not be as bad as thought...
> 
> FWIW,
> Kirby
> 
> 
> 
> On 8 May 2010, at 11:36 PM, boyd casey wrote:
> 
> > That's basically what I am doing. I got poly graphite bushings that I am
> > using for all my a-arm
> > bushings and rubber bushings for my sway bars. I was just about to order
a
> > pair of heim ball ends for my rear sway bars and my advisor ( this gut
is a
> > designer custom fabricator, used to own his own sprint car team and had
a
> > business that designed and fabricated turbbo charger and super charger
> > systems. He has scales and knows how to set up a suspension for full
race
> > and how to set up suspwnsion for street cars and everything inbetween. I
am
> > having my front upper a-rms modified by johnny woods and he is doing the
> > modification that increaseses the available caster from the stock 2.5
> > degress up to the 7.00 degress and they have a built in camber lock. He
told
> > me that going with heim balls on the end of my rear sway bars would
transfer
> > all the body roll from the whell on one side all the wat to the opposite
> > whell and could cause a dangerous situation in a street situation where
the
> > road surfcae is less then perfect. Since I will be driving mostly on the
> > street I need to balance that with the ability to adjust the suspension
for
> > the track WHEN I NEED IT!. The way he explained it it is better toset up
for
> > the street and hve to run on the track then to be set up for the track
and
> > run on rough street conditions. The rough conditions can cause one to
lose
> > control .
> > Boyd
> >
> > On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Charles Engles <cengles at cox.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Boyd,
> >>
> >>
> >>         I am no expert, but I think your friend is right.
> >>
> >>         Another point for the rubber bushings was Bob Woodhouse's
> >> recommendation to use poly urethane all around the suspension *except*
for
> >> the front sway bar mounts.   FWIW.
> >>
> >>
> >>                Warmest regards,  Chuck Engles
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
[mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> >> On
> >> Behalf Of boyd casey
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2010 6:20 PM
> >> To: JDeRyke at aol.com
> >> Cc: tborcich at msn.com; detomaso at realbig.com
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sway Bar Mounts on A-arms
> >>
> >> I was discussing my suspension modifications and build today with a
friend
> >> of mine from my car club who is an expert at race car building and set
up
> >> and I mentioned my desire to install 1" sway bars and heim joints. I
was
> >> told that this would be ideal for the race track but could cause
serious
> >> problems if used on the street and one were to encounter fough road
> >> conditions. I was told that this set up while being very efficent at
> >> preventing body roll , but when one encounters rough or uneven road
> >> surfaces
> >> the sway bar with heim ball ends it would be very unforgiving in
> >> transfering
> >> force from on side of the car to the other  and could result in putting
the
> >> car and driver in a very difficult position if either encountered poor
road
> >> conditions. He suggested I retain the conventional rubber bushings for
the
> >> sway bar.
> >> Boyd
> >>
> >> On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 3:29 PM, <JDeRyke at aol.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In a message dated 5/8/10 10:41:49 AM, tborcich at msn.com writes:
> >>>
> >>>> I recall a number of months back someone commented that I should add
> >>>> additional support to the sway bar mounts on the a-arms because
theirs
> >>> pulled
> >>>> right off the arm from loading?
> >>>>
> >>> Yes, under some circumstances. If you run a big swaybar bar AND
> >>> polyurethane bar-end bushings AND drive fast on bumpy roads, the poly
> >>> bushing on the
> >>> end is so non-compliant it flexes the little bar mount rather than
> >>> deforming
> >>> the poly end. Fatigue-cracking follows after a while. So you can weld
up
> >>> mount reinforcements, or (better) you can add sphere-ball ends to the
> >> bars
> >>> and
> >>> use poly only for the centeral bar-pivots. This results in much freer
> >>> antiswaybar action and a lighter more stock suspension. With the
> >>> sphere-balls
> >>> installed on both ends of both bars, you can actually feel the
difference
> >>> with
> >>> the same bar! Most of the vendors sell some sort of sphere-ball bar
ends
> >>> and
> >>> they are highly recommended. FWIW- J DeRyke
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