[DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes

Tony DiGiovanna tonydigi at optonline.net
Sat Jun 19 15:05:48 EDT 2010


The thermostat was the first thing to come out when I started diagnoses.


-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of Tomas Gunnarsson
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 4:48 PM
To: 'De Tomaso List'
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes

Does your orifice plate block off allow the thermostat you're using to open
completely?

Tomas

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
[mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]On Behalf Of Tony DiGiovanna
Sent: den 18 juni 2010 01:20
To: 'Julian Kift'; cengles at cox.net; 'De Tomaso List'; wdemelo at cogeco.ca
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes


I have blocked off the bypass passage with a freeze plug installed in the
brass plate below where the thermostat goes.  Both are fully restrained with
JB Weld.  I have not blocked the passage from the water pump up to that
point.  Don't see a need to.

The temp sender is in the front of the block which is sensing water coming
from the head on its way to the thermostat area, then swirl tank then
radiator.



From: Julian Kift [mailto:julian_kift at hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:44 AM
To: tonydigi at optonline.net; cengles at cox.net; De Tomaso List;
wdemelo at cogeco.ca
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes



Are both the t-stat bypass hole in the block and the water pump bypass
sealed? I assume your temp sender is in the block above the water pump?

Julian

> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 23:19:46 -0400
> From: tonydigi at optonline.net
> To: cengles at cox.net; detomaso at realbig.com; wdemelo at cogeco.ca
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes
>
> Thanks. All good thinking.
> Yeah, I've been thru it all already.
> Checked the alignment of pump to plate to block. It's a brand new timing
> cover from Summit, by the way.
> Edelbrock Victor Series Water Pump.
> The thermostat bypass hole is permanently plugged.
> Alluminum radiator.
> Dual pusher fans.
> And, all of this is the same as the 4 previous engines.
> Water flow is visually normal in the swirl tank, so I do not believe I
have
> lower-than-normal water flow.
> The gauge temp is confirmed.
> Pure water with no cap boils at an indicated 210.
> Pressurized water boils at about 235 indicated.
> I am certain that it warms up a lot faster than previous engines too.
> I can run antifreeze and avoid boiling, but I still want the temp down. It
> runs better at 190 than 230. Everything points to the cooling system being
> ok. This engine is just dumping more heat into the water. I'm just looking
> to improve the situation for the summer, until I get my stroker finished
and
> in.
> So...I am going to try to get more water flow.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Engles [mailto:cengles at cox.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 10:39 PM
> To: 'Tony DiGiovanna'
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes
>
> Dear Tony,
>
>
> One other place to look for a hidden restriction is the front engine
> plate. I have a collection of, umm, six or seven plates. Four or five
> are loose in the parts warehouse. Someone smarter and more observant than
> me told me that there were *two* versions of the engine plate. I looked at
> mine and he was right. One of the plates had openings for the water pump
> that were bigger than the other plates. Apparently, there were two
> stampings. One stamping has a terrible mismatch for the size of the plate
> opening with the engine block and with the pump. The other stamping has
> much more modest restrictions. I was shown that if you then take a FelPro
> water pump gasket and add it's fitment to the block,plate and pump opening
> mismatches, then it can add further impedance to flow.
>
> Consequently, as you are trying to rationally sort out your hot engine
> and you're not finding any obvious source, then you might consider the
> "heart" of the cooling system: the triad of the front of the block, the
> front engine plate and pump (and the gasket). I would think that coolant
> flow is impeded in an average 351C and could be optimized with attention
to
> these physical mismatches. In particularly bad cases where everything is
> especially mismatched with others, then flow might be bad enough for a hot
> engine with no easy answer in the usual places. I don't know that, but I
> think it is possible.
>
> I will attach secret photos visible only to you (as the list strips
> attachments). See what you think.
>
>
> Your fellow engine builder, Chuck Engles
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony DiGiovanna [mailto:tonydigi at optonline.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 8:38 PM
> To: wkooiman at earthlink.net; 'Tomas Gunnarsson'; detomaso at realbig.com;
> 'Charles Engles'
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes
>
> Here is why I raise the question, and here is what I think:
> I have an engine that runs 230 deg F in my Pantera, when all of my
previous
> engines ran 190.
> It ran hotter before I removed the perfectly functional thermostat. It ran
> hotter before I had the radiator cleaned. It ran hotter before I flushed
> the block out backwards. This engine just runs hotter. Everything else
> checks out OK. If there is an issue, it is not an easy one to
find/correct.
> I'd like to bring the temp down.
>
> Water always flows by pressure differential, so I think all the holes flow
> some from the block into the head. I think the holes are sized to be the
> controlling orifice of the system; 1) to ensure positive delta-P along the
> entire head (like a pull-up resister for you EEs) so flow is ensured in
one
> direction. 2) to ensure some fresh flow along the middle and front of the
> head. Otherwise, the rear cylinders would always be colder and the front
> hotter.
>
> However, I think the sizing is based on factory engineering or experience
> with the stock 260HP engine and component. I think the old additional
> "steam hole" revision was actually just an increase in water flow. Not
sure
> what steam has to do with it. The system isn't in steam phase unless it's
> already boiling - too late.
>
> I'm thinking the flow thru entire engine could be increased by increasing
> all the holes by a fixed percentage of area and result in a decrease in my
> water temperature, maybe.
>
> I'm probably going to try it. I'll post results.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
On
> Behalf Of wkooiman at earthlink.net
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2010 9:13 PM
> To: Tomas Gunnarsson; detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes
>
> Don't make the tiny holes bigger. They are steam holes.
>
> The water enters both sides of the block by the water pump. It travels to
> the back, and enters the heads. It flows through the heads and back to the
> front. It re-enters the block, then to the thermostat in the block, and to
> the water bottles.
>
> If you make the steam holes larger, too much water will flow from the
middle
> of the block to the heads. I don't know if it would happen, but I'd bet it
> would cause the head to run hot near the rear of the block.
>
> If you make the large hole near the front of the block larger, it should
> make the water flow faster - assuming the hole is a restriction. My guess
> is the restriction is the thermostat housing, though, so if you make the
the
> large holes larger, it shouldn't do anything.
>
> I wouldn't mess with any of the holes in the head gasket. They are a
> specific size for a reason.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
> >Sent: Jun 15, 2010 3:32 PM
> >To: detomaso at realbig.com
> >Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes
> >
> >Which holes are you talking about? All or only selected holes?
> >
> >Tomas
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> >[mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]On Behalf Of Tony DiGiovanna
> >Sent: den 14 juni 2010 23:59
> >To: detomaso at realbig.com
> >Subject: [DeTomaso] Head Gasket Holes
> >
> >
> >So..what happens if you make the water passage holes in the head
> >gaskets bigger?
> >
> >
> >
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