[DeTomaso] windsor motivation

Wed Jul 28 14:43:24 EDT 2010

Hey all,i was not trying to ding the Cleveland.I am not against them.I just wanted to clarify a few "advantages" i found that helped me decide to go Windsor instead of staying with the Cleveland.
I believe swapping to the A3 heads is a huge improvement.Webers aint bad neither! : )  If i ever build a Cleveland again and used the stock port sized 4V heads it would have to be a stroker to get the velocity of the air higher at lower rpm.Now with CHI and AFD good heads are available again it makes a Cleveland build more likely in the future for some other project.
I dont know about the 2V heads.I have heard stories they are good at low rpm but drop off quickly at higher rpms.Even worse with a stroker.Dont know how accurate that really is,but i heard it more than once.
My first car was a Mach 1 Mustang with the 351 4v cleveland.It was not very responsive below 3000 rpm.Above 3000 it was great!
In the Pantera i also didnt have the snappy low end response i wanted.Tried a cam upgrade,closed chamber 4v heads,carb, and an aluminum flywheel.Couldnt find good aftermarket heads at the time.
I think stock block weights are the same or very close between Windsor and Cleveland.
A World Man O War iron block is 218 lbs.However the aluminum block is 110 lbs with caps and sleeves installed.I think Dart figures are roughly the same as well for both iron and aluminum blocks.I dont know who makes the just released SVO aluminum block or its weights.
Anyway i just found a lot more factory and aftermarket supplies and tech support for the Windsor,which just make it so much easier to build and maintain.
They are both good,just build/buy what you want.If i ever grenade my current engine i will go with the aluminum Dart block and maybe up it to 427 ci,just because i like that number.
Four weeks until my 180 headers get here!Then its my turn to drive by Bob Bensons house and tease him with that glorious exhaust note,like he does to me at least once a week!

--- On Wed, 7/28/10, wkooiman at earthlink.net <wkooiman at earthlink.net> wrote:

From: wkooiman at earthlink.net <wkooiman at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] windsor motivation
To: "richard bosch" <theemonkey at yahoo.com>, detomaso at realbig.com
Date: Wednesday, July 28, 2010, 7:18 AM

I don't agree with a couple of the dings on the 351C, but that's a very good analysis.

Dings?  My 351C (A3 heads, CompCams 294S, Webers) had so much low end torque it would blow the tires at half throttle.  I ran it for a while with a Holley.  It still had plenty of low-end, but it is much better with the Webers.  In other words, I don't remember any low-end torque issues.  When I had a stock 351C, it also had plenty of low-end, although it certainly wouldn't "blow the tires".

Someone else mentioned the weight of a 351C block.  I put 3 of them on a scale.  They all weighed about 160 lbs.  That's probably about the same as 351W blocks, and maybe even lighter.  Remember the 351W has a 9.5" deck, so I bet the extra meat for the .3" makes up for the extended timing chain cover of a 351C.

Most race blocks (351W style) are about 190 lbs.  Original 429/460 blocks are around 190 lbs - I think.  I'm pretty sure 5.0 blocks are about 140 lbs.

Like I said, though, that's a very good analysis.  My ultimate engine is a blend - A3 Heads, Webers, and racing 351W parts for everything else.

-----Original Message-----
>From: richard bosch <theemonkey at yahoo.com>
>Sent: Jul 27, 2010 4:02 PM
>To: detomaso at realbig.com
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] windsor motivation
>
>I recently (spring 2009) swapped to a 408 Ci Windsor.
>Major pluses were parts availability,cost,reliability,drive ability,and ease of the conversion.
>1994 and later blocks are all roller cam ready,no link bar lifters needed with a full size base circle camshaft.Sometime in the 1980's i believe Windsors changed to a one piece rear main seal so oil leaks are greatly reduced.
>Parts are everywhere for a lot less than a Cleveland.No trouble getting a thermostat,or a steel distributor gear. : )
>Almost every machine shop knows how to build a Windsor versus finding a good Cleveland one.
>A Dart block is incredibly strong and low cost.It can be ordered with Cleveland main bearing diameter so high revs are available.You can get a World or SVO block as well.
>Flat top valve covers are available(like the new Boss 347)which look great like a Cleveland.
>Great low end power plus top end as well.No low end bogging issues with a larger than average cam(roughly 600 lift,110 lobe center,250 degrees @.50 duration hyd. roller,304 degrees advertised).In fact i had traction issues trying to leave stop signs at part throttle,riding the clutch like i used to drive the Cleveland when i first put the engine in.Part of the problem was the old  Michelin sport Cup tires,part was me.
>The conversion was easy!You need different headers(all the vendors carry them),Alt bracket(mustang 1970 and newer $20 was the cost?) A/C bracket,(vendors again).
>Thermostat housing/water outlet was the one problem part i had.The one i got from Pantera Proformance does not have the bypass.Other people have told me they had no issues,but i wanted the bypass.I purchased a swivel thermostat housing from Jegs angled the outlet as far left as it would go and used a Dodge Neon lower radiator hose(its a 1 and 3/8ths diam. with the proper bend to clear the bypass).
>Motor mounts,bell housing are the same.Flywheel is the same if the Windsor is balanced at 28oz like all pre 1980? small blocks.You can get them in 50oz,28oz and zero balance.I run the Centerforce aluminum flywheel and the weights are bolt ons that you can change at will.
>I am not against Clevelands,in fact my first car was a M code Mach 1 Mustang.
>Love the windsor in my car,and will not be switching back.Just my 2 cents,Richard
>PS,ordered 180 degree headers today from Pantera Proformance,so i will have coated big throat (from PI)windsor headers for sale soon if anyone wants a deal.
>
>
>      
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