[DeTomaso] supercharger questions

Mon Jan 4 12:22:34 EST 2010

As for as "why supercharging"  my answer is simple.  I had planned to build an engine using a Fontana block, Yates heads, and EFI.  I had repeatedly heard how the EFI calmed down the engine.  Then I was given a ride in a 500+ HP Pantera, with an IR EFI, which people had said was a smooth running car due to the EFI.  I guess it's all subjective, but my idea of smooth is a whole lot smoother than the car I rode in.  

The solution was simple, either turbo charging or super charging.  40 years ago I was fine with a radial motor, but I also drove few miles, and never on a weekend getaway.  Now I want power and a car I can drive to Monterey for the weekend.  So it's a no brainer.  The only solution is turbocharging or supercharging.  Getting an extra 200 HP is nice also.

Also, there is a power range where you must either supercharge or go to seriously high RPM to make the target HP.  I suspect it's cheaper to build a 600 HP turbocharged motor that redlines at 6,000 than a 600 HP normally aspirated motor that has to rev to 7,500 to make the same HP.  

Ken

--- On Sun, 1/3/10, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
Cc: jderyke at aol.com, detomaso at realbig.com
Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 5:27 PM

Ken,
I have spoken to Chris about his modular engine. I actually would prefer the
Ford modular engine . I think the 4 vales per cylinder and the DOHC seem
much more appropriate for an Italian exotic. The only problem is the engine
costs around twice as much as an LS 3 getting more horsepower or an LS7 with
the titanium  guts and no forced induction getting 505 HP and 28 mpg. You
can buy an LS7 for $13k and change.
Hugh

On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Boyd,
>
>     The ZF may be a bigger issue than the engine, and more expensive to
> replace.  It may be good to not go above 800 HP?
>
>     I talked to Jim Bell (Kenne Belll Superchargers) a while back and he
> said they get an easy 800 HP in one of the current  Mustangs (I think the
> GT500???)  and it's a very reliable street engine.  He thought it would work
> well in a Pantera.  Jim seems to have some pretty cool technology in his
> twin screw superchargers and he seems to have a lot of real world
> experience.
>
>    Chris Difani would have thoughts on this.
>
> Ken
>
> --- On *Sun, 1/3/10, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
> To: jderyke at aol.com
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 3:25 PM
>
> Thanks for your quick and informative reply. I should have mentioned I am
> not planning on supercharging my 37 year old Cleveland. I have been
> thinking
> about what I would  do ( or will do  when my Cleveland gives up the fight.
> I
> have no indication that this is an impending issue but one never knows.
> It's
> like a stroke or a Heart attack, if you knew it was coming you would
> probably have done something differently. I know supercharging my old
> Cleveland in any form would make the possibility of a major failure a
> certainty instead of a possibility. I know many will think it sacrilege but
> I have been researching  a supercharged LS3. Based on my calculations I can
> get an engine with much more horsepower and almost all the technological
> advantageous of the LS7 or LS9
> including the efi specifically designed for the application and the coil on
> cylinder ignition as well as the advantageous of the 6 bolt main , aluminum
> block and keep the price around that of the LS7 with 200 or more horsepower
> then the LS7  . According to the horsepower estimates the LS3  376/480 with
> 6 psi would generate  675hp at the flywheel and 540 Hp at the rear wheels.
> With 8 psi you would be looking at  756 hp and 605 hp at the rear wheels.
> With a Whipple twin screw supercharger and 3 core intercooler you can
> obtain
> 25 psi . If you are prepared to push the envelope and the idea of
> rebuilding
> your engine on a regular basis does not bother you 20 lbs psi would produce
> an estimated 1015 hp at the flywheel and 812HP at the rear wheels. You can
> buy an LS 376/480 for $6399 directly from a GM dealer (the retail price is
> $9138). The LS7 retails around $19,000 and you can buy one for around
> $13,000 and the LS9 which is already supercharged , comes with a dry sump
> and drive by wire controls will run you around $19,000. In all of these
> examples you still need to buy an ecu and harness and with the LS3 you
> would
> need to spend between $6000 and $7000 for a complete supercharger setup
> with
> intercooler. You would also need a new bell housing with any LS based
> engine
> and as you know and with any engine that provides a big increase in
> horsepower you  will need to regear your ZF if you wanted to convert all
> the
> extra horse power into a higher top speed and a quicker 0-60 ( like 0-60 in
> 3 secs in first gear). I like to think about the various re powering
> possibilities during the winter months while I can't drive the Pantera.
> When
> the day comes that I have to take action I will be prepared to make a
> decision having already done the research. I have been spending my time and
> money upgrading my brakes and suspension. I want to make sure I can stop
> faster before I worry about  going faster!.
> Boyd
>
> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, <jderyke at aol.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jderyke@aol.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 1/3/10 9:57:57 AM, boyd411 at gmail.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmail.com>writes:
> >
> > Do you think a Whipple twin screw supercharger with an intercooler is a
> > better choice or a Centrifugal supercharger ( like a Paxton or a Vortech
> )
> >
> > Depends on the engine and what you plan to do with it. First, I would NOT
> > supercharge any 351-C that's been overbored unless you have a sonic-test
> in
> > hand that shows over 0.100" cylinder wall thickness everywhere AFTER such
> > boring. Thin walls flex with combustion pressures, blown engine
> combustion
> > pressures are significantly higher and cast iron doesn't flex very long.
> So
> > I'd suggest a different engine. Second, actually driving most blowers in
> a
> > Pantera is difficult due to not enough space for a proper width drive
> belt,
> > unless the engine is shifted backward. Shift the engine first before
> buying
> > any blower. Next, most blower kits are made for drag racing and don't
> work
> > well for long-haul use. Depends on your plans for the car. Budget about
> > $7000 for such a kit and have an extra block or two around; blower-savvy
> > engine bulders say your experience with superchargers is in direct
> > proportion to the number of ruined blocks out back...All it takes is one
> > (1.0) backfire to take out most systems so a really good ignition and
> fuel
> > system is much more important than higher boost. There's a reason most
> > factory systems only push about 5-8 psi. Finally, whipplechargers are
> well
> > known for pushing more air more efficiently than other designs, without
> the
> > lag built into centrifugal blowers. A well-designed intercooler (few
> really
> > are, by the way) is worth a few more psi in boost at the cost of extra
> wt,
> > complication in mounting in a Pantera and $$$, plus more damage if the
> > engine pops. You can't practically run an air-cooled intercooler with
> most
> > mid-engined configurations so a watercooled assembly makes more sense.
> Good
> > luck- J DeRyke (who owns two factory-blown vehicles- one intercooled. Fun
> > for mountain driving.)
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