[DeTomaso] supercharger questions

wkooiman at earthlink.net wkooiman at earthlink.net
Sun Jan 3 22:14:51 EST 2010 

Bill,

I drove my car without A/C as a daily driver in Houston for about 3 years.  I used it for about a year for my weekly commute to Dallas.

My car hasn't had crazy power - just more than I could legally use on the street.

It was a great commute car.  It isn't fun in heavy rain, nor is it fun without A/C in Houston in traffic - i.e. < 10mph.

It was a *major* stress reliever.  When you leave work, you're stressed out, thinking about work and so on, and then you hop in the P-seat, and start therapy.

You're problem is going to be driving a Pantera with 600hp on the street.  Be careful.  That's a LOT of power on the right foot.  Many people wreck cars with that much HP.


-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
>Sent: Jan 3, 2010 9:59 PM
>To: boyd411 at gmail.com, kenn_green at yahoo.com
>Cc: jderyke at aol.com, detomaso at realbig.com
>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
>
>
>Has anyone ever had a "stripped weight" daily driver type Pantera?  No A/C.  Cut out all bad weight.  No heavy roll cage.  Decent seats.  Holy Moly power that you could drive to Vegas.
>     ----What could it be pared down to weight-wise?
>     -----  I'm like Boyd - winter time, too much free time to think about bizzare, fun things. (Jump on that Larry).    ---Bill Lewis
>
>
>
>
>
>> Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2010 20:27:02 -0500
>> From: boyd411 at gmail.com
>> To: kenn_green at yahoo.com
>> CC: jderyke at aol.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
>> 
>> Ken,
>> I have spoken to Chris about his modular engine. I actually would prefer the
>> Ford modular engine . I think the 4 vales per cylinder and the DOHC seem
>> much more appropriate for an Italian exotic. The only problem is the engine
>> costs around twice as much as an LS 3 getting more horsepower or an LS7 with
>> the titanium  guts and no forced induction getting 505 HP and 28 mpg. You
>> can buy an LS7 for $13k and change.
>> Hugh
>> 
>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Boyd,
>> >
>> >     The ZF may be a bigger issue than the engine, and more expensive to
>> > replace.  It may be good to not go above 800 HP?
>> >
>> >     I talked to Jim Bell (Kenne Belll Superchargers) a while back and he
>> > said they get an easy 800 HP in one of the current  Mustangs (I think the
>> > GT500???)  and it's a very reliable street engine.  He thought it would work
>> > well in a Pantera.  Jim seems to have some pretty cool technology in his
>> > twin screw superchargers and he seems to have a lot of real world
>> > experience.
>> >
>> >    Chris Difani would have thoughts on this.
>> >
>> > Ken
>> >
>> > --- On *Sun, 1/3/10, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
>> > To: jderyke at aol.com
>> > Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
>> > Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 3:25 PM
>> >
>> > Thanks for your quick and informative reply. I should have mentioned I am
>> > not planning on supercharging my 37 year old Cleveland. I have been
>> > thinking
>> > about what I would  do ( or will do  when my Cleveland gives up the fight.
>> > I
>> > have no indication that this is an impending issue but one never knows.
>> > It's
>> > like a stroke or a Heart attack, if you knew it was coming you would
>> > probably have done something differently. I know supercharging my old
>> > Cleveland in any form would make the possibility of a major failure a
>> > certainty instead of a possibility. I know many will think it sacrilege but
>> > I have been researching  a supercharged LS3. Based on my calculations I can
>> > get an engine with much more horsepower and almost all the technological
>> > advantageous of the LS7 or LS9
>> > including the efi specifically designed for the application and the coil on
>> > cylinder ignition as well as the advantageous of the 6 bolt main , aluminum
>> > block and keep the price around that of the LS7 with 200 or more horsepower
>> > then the LS7  . According to the horsepower estimates the LS3  376/480 with
>> > 6 psi would generate  675hp at the flywheel and 540 Hp at the rear wheels.
>> > With 8 psi you would be looking at  756 hp and 605 hp at the rear wheels.
>> > With a Whipple twin screw supercharger and 3 core intercooler you can
>> > obtain
>> > 25 psi . If you are prepared to push the envelope and the idea of
>> > rebuilding
>> > your engine on a regular basis does not bother you 20 lbs psi would produce
>> > an estimated 1015 hp at the flywheel and 812HP at the rear wheels. You can
>> > buy an LS 376/480 for $6399 directly from a GM dealer (the retail price is
>> > $9138). The LS7 retails around $19,000 and you can buy one for around
>> > $13,000 and the LS9 which is already supercharged , comes with a dry sump
>> > and drive by wire controls will run you around $19,000. In all of these
>> > examples you still need to buy an ecu and harness and with the LS3 you
>> > would
>> > need to spend between $6000 and $7000 for a complete supercharger setup
>> > with
>> > intercooler. You would also need a new bell housing with any LS based
>> > engine
>> > and as you know and with any engine that provides a big increase in
>> > horsepower you  will need to regear your ZF if you wanted to convert all
>> > the
>> > extra horse power into a higher top speed and a quicker 0-60 ( like 0-60 in
>> > 3 secs in first gear). I like to think about the various re powering
>> > possibilities during the winter months while I can't drive the Pantera.
>> > When
>> > the day comes that I have to take action I will be prepared to make a
>> > decision having already done the research. I have been spending my time and
>> > money upgrading my brakes and suspension. I want to make sure I can stop
>> > faster before I worry about  going faster!.
>> > Boyd
>> >
>> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, <jderyke at aol.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jderyke@aol.com>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > In a message dated 1/3/10 9:57:57 AM, boyd411 at gmail.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmail.com>writes:
>> > >
>> > > Do you think a Whipple twin screw supercharger with an intercooler is a
>> > > better choice or a Centrifugal supercharger ( like a Paxton or a Vortech
>> > )
>> > >
>> > > Depends on the engine and what you plan to do with it. First, I would NOT
>> > > supercharge any 351-C that's been overbored unless you have a sonic-test
>> > in
>> > > hand that shows over 0.100" cylinder wall thickness everywhere AFTER such
>> > > boring. Thin walls flex with combustion pressures, blown engine
>> > combustion
>> > > pressures are significantly higher and cast iron doesn't flex very long.
>> > So
>> > > I'd suggest a different engine. Second, actually driving most blowers in
>> > a
>> > > Pantera is difficult due to not enough space for a proper width drive
>> > belt,
>> > > unless the engine is shifted backward. Shift the engine first before
>> > buying
>> > > any blower. Next, most blower kits are made for drag racing and don't
>> > work
>> > > well for long-haul use. Depends on your plans for the car. Budget about
>> > > $7000 for such a kit and have an extra block or two around; blower-savvy
>> > > engine bulders say your experience with superchargers is in direct
>> > > proportion to the number of ruined blocks out back...All it takes is one
>> > > (1.0) backfire to take out most systems so a really good ignition and
>> > fuel
>> > > system is much more important than higher boost. There's a reason most
>> > > factory systems only push about 5-8 psi. Finally, whipplechargers are
>> > well
>> > > known for pushing more air more efficiently than other designs, without
>> > the
>> > > lag built into centrifugal blowers. A well-designed intercooler (few
>> > really
>> > > are, by the way) is worth a few more psi in boost at the cost of extra
>> > wt,
>> > > complication in mounting in a Pantera and $$$, plus more damage if the
>> > > engine pops. You can't practically run an air-cooled intercooler with
>> > most
>> > > mid-engined configurations so a watercooled assembly makes more sense.
>> > Good
>> > > luck- J DeRyke (who owns two factory-blown vehicles- one intercooled. Fun
>> > > for mountain driving.)
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