[DeTomaso] supercharger questions

Will Demelo wdemelo at cogeco.ca
Sun Jan 3 22:05:16 EST 2010 

21 degrees would be nice!
Will (Canada)
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <wkooiman at earthlink.net>
To: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>; "Peter Kovacs" 
<peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>
Cc: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; <jderyke at aol.com>; 
<detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions


> If it were me (and only if it were me), when it's 21 degrees outside, I'd 
> be planning on moving somewhere where it isn't 21 degrees outside.  But 
> that's just me.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>Sent: Jan 3, 2010 9:11 PM
>>To: Peter Kovacs <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>
>>Cc: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>, jderyke at aol.com, 
>>detomaso at realbig.com
>>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
>>
>>I have to agree that there is no reasonable  excuse for 800hp. The one 
>>thing
>>besides the "cool" factor is that the LS7 (for example) puts out 505 hp
>>while providing a stated 28 mpg in the corvette. The titanium guts are as
>>close to bullet proof as you can get in a pushrod engine, and you have efi
>>designed specifically for the engine as well as coil on cylinder ignition
>>and every component matched to work at an optimum level. The engineers at 
>>GM
>>claim that the engine has to withstand a projected 100,000 miles life
>>expectancy in order to pass muster.  I know I could easily get comparable 
>>HP
>>from a cleveland stroker but there's no chance of the mileage or life
>>expectancy. It's just an idea I have been kicking around. As I mentioned
>>earlier when it's 21 degrees outside I like to think about what I might 
>>plan
>>next.
>>Boyd
>>
>>On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 8:41 PM, Peter Kovacs 
>><peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>wrote:
>>
>>> Ron Demedeiros has a 5.4 in his Pantera and I have a supercharged 4.6
>>> stroked to a 5.1 in my 73. The only regret I have is not spending more 
>>> time
>>> driving it. Mild mannered when you treat it that way and wild with your 
>>> foot
>>> in it.
>>>
>>> *Peter Kovacs*
>>> *209 345-6708 *
>>> *209 436-2000 fx*
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>> *From:* boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>> *To:* Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>> *Cc:* jderyke at aol.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>>> *Sent:* Sun, January 3, 2010 5:27:02 PM
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
>>>
>>> Ken,
>>> I have spoken to Chris about his modular engine. I actually would prefer
>>> the
>>> Ford modular engine . I think the 4 vales per cylinder and the DOHC seem
>>> much more appropriate for an Italian exotic. The only problem is the 
>>> engine
>>> costs around twice as much as an LS 3 getting more horsepower or an LS7
>>> with
>>> the titanium  guts and no forced induction getting 505 HP and 28 mpg. 
>>> You
>>> can buy an LS7 for $13k and change.
>>> Hugh
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Boyd,
>>> >
>>> >    The ZF may be a bigger issue than the engine, and more expensive to
>>> > replace.  It may be good to not go above 800 HP?
>>> >
>>> >    I talked to Jim Bell (Kenne Belll Superchargers) a while back and 
>>> > he
>>> > said they get an easy 800 HP in one of the current  Mustangs (I think 
>>> > the
>>> > GT500???)  and it's a very reliable street engine.  He thought it 
>>> > would
>>> work
>>> > well in a Pantera.  Jim seems to have some pretty cool technology in 
>>> > his
>>> > twin screw superchargers and he seems to have a lot of real world
>>> > experience.
>>> >
>>> >    Chris Difani would have thoughts on this.
>>> >
>>> > Ken
>>> >
>>> > --- On *Sun, 1/3/10, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] supercharger questions
>>> > To: jderyke at aol.com
>>> > Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
>>> > Date: Sunday, January 3, 2010, 3:25 PM
>>> >
>>> > Thanks for your quick and informative reply. I should have mentioned I 
>>> > am
>>> > not planning on supercharging my 37 year old Cleveland. I have been
>>> > thinking
>>> > about what I would  do ( or will do  when my Cleveland gives up the
>>> fight.
>>> > I
>>> > have no indication that this is an impending issue but one never 
>>> > knows.
>>> > It's
>>> > like a stroke or a Heart attack, if you knew it was coming you would
>>> > probably have done something differently. I know supercharging my old
>>> > Cleveland in any form would make the possibility of a major failure a
>>> > certainty instead of a possibility. I know many will think it 
>>> > sacrilege
>>> but
>>> > I have been researching  a supercharged LS3. Based on my calculations 
>>> > I
>>> can
>>> > get an engine with much more horsepower and almost all the 
>>> > technological
>>> > advantageous of the LS7 or LS9
>>> > including the efi specifically designed for the application and the 
>>> > coil
>>> on
>>> > cylinder ignition as well as the advantageous of the 6 bolt main ,
>>> aluminum
>>> > block and keep the price around that of the LS7 with 200 or more
>>> horsepower
>>> > then the LS7  . According to the horsepower estimates the LS3  376/480
>>> with
>>> > 6 psi would generate  675hp at the flywheel and 540 Hp at the rear
>>> wheels.
>>> > With 8 psi you would be looking at  756 hp and 605 hp at the rear 
>>> > wheels.
>>> > With a Whipple twin screw supercharger and 3 core intercooler you can
>>> > obtain
>>> > 25 psi . If you are prepared to push the envelope and the idea of
>>> > rebuilding
>>> > your engine on a regular basis does not bother you 20 lbs psi would
>>> produce
>>> > an estimated 1015 hp at the flywheel and 812HP at the rear wheels. You
>>> can
>>> > buy an LS 376/480 for $6399 directly from a GM dealer (the retail 
>>> > price
>>> is
>>> > $9138). The LS7 retails around $19,000 and you can buy one for around
>>> > $13,000 and the LS9 which is already supercharged , comes with a dry 
>>> > sump
>>> > and drive by wire controls will run you around $19,000. In all of 
>>> > these
>>> > examples you still need to buy an ecu and harness and with the LS3 you
>>> > would
>>> > need to spend between $6000 and $7000 for a complete supercharger 
>>> > setup
>>> > with
>>> > intercooler. You would also need a new bell housing with any LS based
>>> > engine
>>> > and as you know and with any engine that provides a big increase in
>>> > horsepower you  will need to regear your ZF if you wanted to convert 
>>> > all
>>> > the
>>> > extra horse power into a higher top speed and a quicker 0-60 ( like 
>>> > 0-60
>>> in
>>> > 3 secs in first gear). I like to think about the various re powering
>>> > possibilities during the winter months while I can't drive the 
>>> > Pantera.
>>> > When
>>> > the day comes that I have to take action I will be prepared to make a
>>> > decision having already done the research. I have been spending my 
>>> > time
>>> and
>>> > money upgrading my brakes and suspension. I want to make sure I can 
>>> > stop
>>> > faster before I worry about  going faster!.
>>> > Boyd
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 3, 2010 at 3:29 PM, <jderyke at aol.com<
>>> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jderyke@aol.com>>
>>> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > In a message dated 1/3/10 9:57:57 AM, boyd411 at gmail.com<
>>> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmail.com>writes:
>>>
>>> > >
>>> > > Do you think a Whipple twin screw supercharger with an intercooler 
>>> > > is a
>>> > > better choice or a Centrifugal supercharger ( like a Paxton or a
>>> Vortech
>>> > )
>>> > >
>>> > > Depends on the engine and what you plan to do with it. First, I 
>>> > > would
>>> NOT
>>> > > supercharge any 351-C that's been overbored unless you have a
>>> sonic-test
>>> > in
>>> > > hand that shows over 0.100" cylinder wall thickness everywhere AFTER
>>> such
>>> > > boring. Thin walls flex with combustion pressures, blown engine
>>> > combustion
>>> > > pressures are significantly higher and cast iron doesn't flex very
>>> long.
>>> > So
>>> > > I'd suggest a different engine. Second, actually driving most 
>>> > > blowers
>>> in
>>> > a
>>> > > Pantera is difficult due to not enough space for a proper width 
>>> > > drive
>>> > belt,
>>> > > unless the engine is shifted backward. Shift the engine first before
>>> > buying
>>> > > any blower. Next, most blower kits are made for drag racing and 
>>> > > don't
>>> > work
>>> > > well for long-haul use. Depends on your plans for the car. Budget 
>>> > > about
>>> > > $7000 for such a kit and have an extra block or two around;
>>> blower-savvy
>>> > > engine bulders say your experience with superchargers is in direct
>>> > > proportion to the number of ruined blocks out back...All it takes is
>>> one
>>> > > (1.0) backfire to take out most systems so a really good ignition 
>>> > > and
>>> > fuel
>>> > > system is much more important than higher boost. There's a reason 
>>> > > most
>>> > > factory systems only push about 5-8 psi. Finally, whipplechargers 
>>> > > are
>>> > well
>>> > > known for pushing more air more efficiently than other designs, 
>>> > > without
>>> > the
>>> > > lag built into centrifugal blowers. A well-designed intercooler (few
>>> > really
>>> > > are, by the way) is worth a few more psi in boost at the cost of 
>>> > > extra
>>> > wt,
>>> > > complication in mounting in a Pantera and $$$, plus more damage if 
>>> > > the
>>> > > engine pops. You can't practically run an air-cooled intercooler 
>>> > > with
>>> > most
>>> > > mid-engined configurations so a watercooled assembly makes more 
>>> > > sense.
>>> > Good
>>> > > luck- J DeRyke (who owns two factory-blown vehicles- one 
>>> > > intercooled.
>>> Fun
>>> > > for mountain driving.)
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