[DeTomaso] Cleveland heads - Project and Background

Tue Feb 23 16:36:07 EST 2010

Wow, great answers, see below for my 2 cents worth.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 3:40 PM, cullen mccann
<clarkwgriswold2nd at gmail.com>wrote:

> " Welcome to the Pantera Community,
>
> Lots of great minds in here who can help you along your journey of turning
> the project into a driver.
>
> Humor me with a few answers that might help us help you better....."
>
>
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> Sure! Thanks for the inquiry and the warm welcome. Of course I'm in
> planning
> mode right now, so this gives me plenty of time to consider my options. but
> to answer your questions, I have provided some fairly thorough responses
> below, sorry if this is too much reading:
>
> How are you going to use the car?
> >>>It will be a driver, not daily but recreational. Not really planning on
> much track time. More of a street car with a real attitude.
>

I think that's how 90% of these cars are used, 5% being track cars and
another 5% being trailer queens.
I think I'd set a goal of a 400 ft lb/ 400 hp engine build for that purpose.
10:1 compression
single 4 bbl carb, street spec cam, if you like rumble sounds,
if you want EFI, expect to give up visceral rumble for more dependability.

That's still 33% above factory specs and plenty powerful enough to kill you
and still embarrass almost everything else on the road
at twice the price or less.

>
> Is this a keeper or something to fix up and sell again?
> >>> Keeper. I am horrible about selling things. I have 13 titled vehicles
> on
> my property and I still have the first car I ever owned, ( bad word coming
> =
> Chevrolet) and I've personally gone thru it twice, first round started when
> I was 13 and the second just out of college. (for background) The latest
> theme for the car is a pro-touring theme, minitubed, 4 wheel discs, 4 link
> on a narrowed 9", 6 point cage, mustang IFS with coilovers and a 408 ci
> small block with a hydraulic roller that hit the dyno ( motor only) at
> 520hp. Transmission is a 3 speed auto, it has 4:10's and a 3500 stall. To
> date I did all the work on the car except build the short block and squirt
> the color. I wish it had overdrive, wraps up a little tight on expressway.
>

I know what you mean, mine will be with me as long as I live, that's the
plan anyway.

>
> Do you have a time line?
> >>>not really. I definitely don't work fast. I have a 15 month old daughter
> ( the real center of my life) and full time career. Honestly I won't start
> working on the car aggressively until I've finished my other irons in the
> fire. (for background) I'm in the bodywork stages of a 392 inch Windsor
> powered Shell Valley Cobra Replica, with a traditional 4 speed toploader.
> It's also rolling on a taller set of 17" Halibrand replicas, 4 wheel discs
> and a triangulated 4 link. Granted this car is fiberglass, so I can't claim
> a major sheet metal experience with this one. I also have a Sunbeam Tiger
> that is waiting for a motor to come of the shop, just finished most of the
> sheet metal work on it, replacing the front fenders and some inner fender
> work. It was an ex-amateur race car with a mild history and took a bump
> against the retaining wall and retired in the 80's, I spent a few months
> resolving its sheet metal on the front end to get it right. It's one of
> only
> about 25 European spec left hand drive Tigers in the states and the only
> one
> of its kind in Oklahoma. I'm also finishing up a 69 Ford Bronco Wagon
> that's
> completely frame-off...or body-off...or ground up..whatever you prefer to
> call it. This is actually more fun than I have had in a long time, I love
> this thing. It gets new floor pans and one new rocker, but is pretty
> straight on the body.
>

I tried to see the photos and could not, I'm sure somebody will notice it
and I will look again later,
Sounds like you have your hands full with several nice toys.
Glad that you are taking your time with the Pantera, it will be worth it.

Rule #1 of course is to take lots of photos and notes, Panteras aren't like
everything else,
so copious notes help.

I'd make a list of the obvious mods that you want to incorporate in the
restoration and not waste
your time fixing something that is going to be replaced anyway.

Some include

Fusebox
Lowering the battery
new radiatorand twin fans
all new cooling tubes and hoses
brakes/springs/shocks/wheels/tires
having the ZF professionally rebuilt and wired
 ( send it off when you can, it will take a while )

>
>
> Do you have a budget in mind for the completed car?
> >>yes and no. I won't make a fool out of myself on the list by offering a
> number up for critique, but I don't want to be completely upside-down
> against what the car is worth when I'm done. I do believe I can build the
> car for AT or just a little more than its value when complete, but of
> course
> that's more of a goal. I know that I have never hit the budget before and
> I'm completely fine with that. I *think* I know how much work is ahead of
> me
> for what I can currently see on the car with paint on it. I know that other
> secrets are said to be revealed when the paint and undercoating come off
> and
> my car does have some pretty substantial rust issues. I will say that
> because I do all of my own work and I do it for the satisfaction, I don't
> put a dollar value to my own time, rather just to the materials, and after
> all of that, I probably won't keep track of costs at all, I don't think I
> want to know.
>

I'd use a middle number for your stated purpose, 50K,
so deduct what you paid already and that's the budget( whatever is  left
over )

>
>
>
> Do you have the space to do all of the work?
> >>>yes I have a small acreage and a 2100 sf shop with a modest attempt at
> basic metal working shop tools and skills: I am setup to MIG, Torch, brake,
> shear, plasma, ARC and bend tubing. I have a home built fab table and
> rotisserie, with my Tiger currently on it, and a 9k 2 post elec over
> hydraulic lift and I'm working on a home built paint ventilated paint
> booth.
> I don't have a real expensive collection of tools but I make the most of
> them. I admit I have shopped at harbor freight a time or two....or three.
>

Nice.

>
>
> Do you have the skills to do all of the work?
> >>>Yes. I, feel that I do, but I admit this is my first Pantera and
> although
> I have studied the panel seams on the car, I'm still learning trying to
> understand exactly how the "monocoque" chassis was constructed. I have
> learned a lot by just staring at the car, but I don't want to reinvent the
> wheel either by learning as I go. I'm thankful for those who have already
> shared their websites and images of similar processes, this information is
> invaluable to me. Regarding skills, I try to know my limitations. There are
> several things I'm still learning how to do but I have a good start and I'm
> confident enough to get started. I haven TIG welded much, and that's on the
> burner of things to learn. I also havent really worked much in traditional
> hammer and dolly, so I would like to learn some more about that, but I have
> cleco'd, done a little stud welding for minor dent removal....but I'm a
> comfortable welder. I have access to a nice TIG machine, so I'm working to
> learn. I know that most of the work I need to do on the body and sheet
> metal
> will be wirefeed but learning the TIG would be neat too. Plus I might
> consider some cage work on the car and the TIG is so much prettier on those
> connections IMO. I don't intend to certify the cage or anything like that,
> but rather just build chassis rigidity if I even go that route. At the very
> least I would probably want to employ the ladder bracing strategies I've
> read about. If I had a cage or a roll bar, I would want the cage to be
> removable, similar to the approach that Gary takes with the rc-tech
> project.
> I'm not nearly as good as he is, but I aspire to be! Gary thank you for
> your
> site and incredible documentation.
>
>
>

I'd say you have it all covered except a paint booth!

> Where are you at in the process now?
> >>>Trailer'd the car home 2 weeks ago, put it on jack stands. Inspected
> thoroughly, ( as thorough as I can considering that I don't know exactly
> "what lies beneath", started to continue to dismantle the interior
> components a bit, documented my parts, and made contact with the local
> support group, and here we are. Next step is to get the car on the
> rotisserie, and strip the paint. Was planning on soda blasting vs chemical
> dipping although I welcome thoughts on that matter, and back it up quickly
> with a metal etching primer to protect while I take my time with the panel
> replacements that are necessary, which is several. By the time I'm done
> with
> that we will all be old and grey and I will remind you who I am at that
> point.   ;)  Honestly I hope to begin work in about 6 months or so and I
> hope I can have the metal work done in about another 2 or 3 months. The car
> is very complete, it just needs...well...everything...
> >>> honestly, worst case, if I find that the car is so rusty that it
> literally cannot be repaired, it would become a parts car and I would wait
> on the list of for another less rusty shell. I know they don't come up very
> often but I have seen them, and this would be my donor car for parts.
> Hopefully the car wont fall apart after the paint comes off.
>
>

>
> When you say, a major Project, does this mean complete disassembly?
> >>>Yes. The PO started to dive into it and was in over-his head in both
> skills, space and money. I have at least the space, don't know about the
> other two, but hopefully I wont follow the same suit! Yes, I would expect
> the car to be the most thorough of complete rebuilds that can be done to a
> car in the history of Panteras, and I'm really looking forward to it.
>
>
>
> If you would share these answers with the list, I'm sure that you'll
> get a long list of suggestions and guidance that will save you
> lots of time, money, bleeding knuckles and heartache.
> Michael Shortt
>
> >>>Thank you for the opportunity to share this in depth. I would surely
> appreciate any thoughts by you and the list. I tried to provide some
> background for myself and some ideal of my intentions, all open for
> comment,
> and thank you for enduring the details.
>
> Cullen
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 

Michael L. Shortt
Savannah, Georgia
www.michaelshortt.com
michael at michaelshortt.com
912-232-9390

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