[DeTomaso] Fellows, please facilitate

[LaurieFerrari at aol.com]

You folks could make it easier (at least for me) to follow this  (less 
boring tread than usual) if you made it like a play.  I had to read all the way 
back to find out what's going  on  ...  Mike's  >>> is not good enough for  
such an ongoing exchange. 
Example:
MD: blah blah blah opinionated rhetoric
B: blah blah blah semi-hostile attack
MD: blah blah blah..... explanation with PCNC as control  group.  
B. more blah blah blah... real life owner surveys 
M: >>>  continued  examples from personal  experience
B: apology not sure for what ????  : )
-----------------------------------------------

[DeTomaso] Dear Boyd - was Rookie needs help
boyd casey _boyd411  at gmail.com _ 
(mailto:detomaso at list.realbig.com?Subject=[DeTomaso]%20Dear%20Boyd%20-%20was%20Rookie%20needs%20help&In-Reply-To=8CD
12C9BAAAFD89-1D08-131BC at webmail-d094.sysops.aol.com) 
Wed Aug 25 20:34:50 CDT 2010  
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____________________________________
I get it, the bull shit just keeps coming. I won't hold my breath because

it's not that you won't back up your "facts" with proof The FACT is you

can't because you pull the supposed facts out of thin air. Your the one who

doesn't get it. It's not about your fuse box or your harness or any of the

other modifications you have made . It's about your way always being the

"right way" and as I've said repeatedly the way you confuse your opinions

with reality. You have no idea how many people have written to me and

complained about your arogance and attitude. People that know you personaly

from your own group. "The mouth of the West" That's what one of your

"Friends called you. You know allot about panteras , there is no denying

that. Your people skills are the equivalent of the electrical skills of who

ever butchered your car. A few people who have had it with your condesending

attitude said I was wasting my time trying to get through to you and I guess

they were right. I'm sure you will rationalize your way out of dealing with

these facts , you can just make up some of your own to replace the ones that

you don't like.





Boyd



On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 8:06 PM, <_mikeldrew at aol.com_ 
(http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso) > wrote:



> Boyd,
>
>
> Apparently you still don't understand the things I've said.  Maybe I was
> typing too fast.  Allow me to slow down and try again.  You wrote:
>
> If the components are "fine" then why did he have to
> 1. Replace his original fuse box with one from a later model?( He said the
> wiring had been hacked into but that shouldn't have effected the fuse 
box.)
>
>  That statement clearly shows how much you know about
>>>>
>>> electricity--and this is coming from a guy who freely admits that he
> knows a bit, but not a lot.  I clearly stated that the previous owner had
> hacked my wiring to such a degree that it actually caused electrical 
fires,
> more than just one.  The result was (among other things) melted wires in 
the
> center of the harness, and a torched fusebox.  A fusebox that has melted 
and
> caught fire because of a previous owner's idiocy should be replaced--and I
> did, with a completely ordinary, used, stock fusebox and harness out of
> Charlie Puckett's 1974 Pantera (he gutted it to turn it into a race car).
>  His car had 20-30K miles on it or something, was completely stock, and 
both
> the harness and fusebox were absolutely perfect, with no signs of distress
> at all from their 20+ years of service up to that point.
>
>
>
>  2. Modify the original circuitry and install the Mosely relay setup
>>
> for the
> fans?
>
>  Because, as I clearly stated to you (repeatedly), the stock
>>>>
>>> circuitry is adequate when stock components are used; when higher-power
> components are substituted, electrical upgrades are then necessary.  As it
> is, I initially had higher-power fans installed, with the stock fusebox, 
and
> although I saw no signs of distress, I later chose to upgrade the system 
and
> move the load for the fans off the stock fuses and onto an aux fusebox as 
a
> preventative measure.  The fans are the only components in my car that
> aren't powered by the stock fusebox.
>
>
>
>  3. Add an auxiliary fuse box to supplement the stock components that
>>
> are
> "absolutely fine"?
> Doesn't sound stock to me!
>
>  Again, you're failing to understand.  The aux fuse box supports the
>>>>
>>> aux high-power components *only* (just the fans and the headlights).  
The
> stock fusebox powers all the remaining systems in the car just fine.
>
> If I had stock headlights, the stock wiring for that circuit might be 
okay.
>  But since I chose to add high-power halogen lights, it made sense to
> install relays to move the load from the switch, which isn't built to take
> that higher draw.  At the same time, the power that feeds the headlights
> through those relays comes from an aux fusebox, and the stock wires are 
used
> solely to control the relays.  The rest of the externl and internal lights
> are powered normally.
>
> Those are the only two modifications in my car's electrical system (oh, 
and
> I've got an MSD ignition, if you want to count that).
>
> If I had nothing but stock components in my car, the stock fusebox would 
be
> doing the job just fine, just as it is for so many others out there.  As 
it
> is, just two systems have had their power source changed.
>
>
>
>  Explain to me how a heavily modified electrical system with the
>>
> addition of
> relays  and an additional fuse box  supports his intital claim that *the
> stock fuse box is "Fine "
>
>  If you don't understand by now, you never will....
>>>>
>>>
>
>  Here is another example of Mike 's confusing his opinion with a fact.
>>
> He
> said:
>
>> "There are over a hundred Panteras in PCNC.  Only a handful are
>>>>
>>> running
> on anything other than the stock fusebox, and none of them have any
> systemic
> electrical problems.  So your statement is patently false."
>
> Where is the documentary evidence to support this statement. Did he survey
> the owners?
>
>  No.  Unlike some people, I don't just sit behind a computer and
>>>>
>>> spout theories.  On a routine basis, I actually get out and TALK to
> people, spend time with them in person, drive their Panteras, and work on
> them.  For instance, I've driven seven, no, eight different Panteras this
> month alone.  You can learn an awful lot by actually being around other
> people and their cars, and talking with them, and most importantly, either
> working on them or at least being present when people who are more capable
> are working on them (which, when it comes to electricity, is my chosen
> practice).
>
>
>  How many have altered their electrical system?
>>
>
>  Locally, perhaps half, maybe a few more.  Only a small handful have
>>>>
>>> chosen to replace their fuseboxes however.  Due to his proximity and the
> excellence of his product, a few PCNC folks have chosen to install Rich
> Boschert's relay kit, which follows the Moseley kit architecture but adds 
a
> few additional circuits and relays; many others have the Moseley kit 
because
> it's been available much longer.
>
>
>  How many are
>>
> having electrical problems?
>
>  Off the top of my head, I can only think of one person in the local
>>>>
>>> area who has any electrical issues at the moment (her windshield wiper
> system quit working all of a sudden).  Nobody has taken the time to
> investigate it yet because the weather is nice at the moment; it won't 
start
> raining until October.  Bill Taylor kindly built me a specialized, 
dedicated
> windshield wiper motor tester box; all I have to do is unplug the motor 
from
> the car's wiring harness, plug in the box, hook up the 12V and ground to
> power the box, and then I can test each position (high speed, low speed,
> return to park); if the motor passes the test, then the problem will lie
> upstream.  At that point, I will get out of the way and let the guys in 
the
> club with the pointy hats with moons and stars on them, go to work.
>
>
>  How many use their cars and what is the average
>>
> use.
>
>  By definition, anybody I talk about is somebody who uses his car,
>>>>
>>> because those are the only cars (and more importantly, people)  I'm
> exposed to.  The nature of this usage varies.
>
>
>  Anybody that has ever written a paper in the pursuit of a degree knows
>>
> that when you make a statement of fact , especially one that includes
> statistical information you must include a bibliography showing the source
> of the facts.
>
>  Don't hold your breath waiting for me to do that for you.
>>>>
>>>
>  In a legal argument any statement of fact must be supported by
>>
> documentary evidence in the form of a bibliography. Where is the proof to
> support these so called" facts"?
>
>  It's at  your nearest Pantera gathering--convention, club meeting,
>>>>
>>> tech session, party, or whatever.  You should try to get out and attend
> one sometime.
>
>
>  This is what I have been saying from the
>>
> very beginning. Mike mixes facts with his opinions so often that he no
> longer knows the difference. He pulled this "fact" out of thin air or some
> place to rude to mention.
>
>  I reported on personal experiences, mine and those of my friends and
>>>>
>>> fellow club members, both locally and around the country, and the world.
>  You can choose to interpret that as 'fact' or 'opinion' as you like.
>
>
>  I would also
>>
> like to ask how many Pantera owners have had recurring electrical 
problems.
>
>  A more valid question would be, "How many owners have recurring
>>>>
>>> electrical problems with systems that were not modified, or hacked in
> some way?"   Chances are, the number would be very small.  Those that do
> occur, often with the external lighting system, can usually be attributed 
to
> dirt/corrosion on the connectors, or at the grounds.  Jack's advice to 
clean
> those thoroughly is spot-on.  That's a simple maintenance issue, 
appropriate
> for any 40-year-old car, and not something that could fairly be attributed
> to a direct fault with the Pantera's electrical setup.
>
> When you introduce further datapoints, like, "How many people have had
> difficulties with their headlight circuits after they changed from the
> crappy sealed beam lights, to high-power halogen or other high-power 
lights
> without making the necessary modifications to support these components
> properly?", the incidence of problems or failure would probably go up
> dramatically.  But the explanation for the problems would also be fairly
> obvious, to anybody who chose to carefully analyze the situation.
>
>
>  I am done discussing this. When it is no longer possible to separate
>>
> the
> facts from  fiction there is no point in continuing.
>
>  I, and I'm sure everyone else, is especially glad to hear of this
>>>>
>>> decision.
>
> Mike