[DeTomaso] Dear Boyd - was Rookie needs help

[mannion.info]

Don't know you at all Boyd but this forum doesn't need this type of personal 
attack. I hope you can chill a bit and come back with something positive and 
constructive or don't come back at all.

Jim Mannion

PCAR #5726



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
To: <mikeldrew at aol.com>
Cc: <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Dear Boyd - was Rookie needs help


>I get it, the bull shit just keeps coming. I won't hold my breath because
> it's not that you won't back up your "facts" with proof The FACT is you
> can't because you pull the supposed facts out of thin air. Your the one 
> who
> doesn't get it. It's not about your fuse box or your harness or any of the
> other modifications you have made . It's about your way always being the
> "right way" and as I've said repeatedly the way you confuse your opinions
> with reality. You have no idea how many people have written to me and
> complained about your arogance and attitude. People that know you 
> personaly
> from your own group. "The mouth of the West" That's what one of your
> "Friends called you. You know allot about panteras , there is no denying
> that. Your people skills are the equivalent of the electrical skills of 
> who
> ever butchered your car. A few people who have had it with your 
> condesending
> attitude said I was wasting my time trying to get through to you and I 
> guess
> they were right. I'm sure you will rationalize your way out of dealing 
> with
> these facts , you can just make up some of your own to replace the ones 
> that
> you don't like.
>
>
> Boyd
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 8:06 PM, <mikeldrew at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Boyd,
>>
>>
>> Apparently you still don't understand the things I've said.  Maybe I was
>> typing too fast.  Allow me to slow down and try again.  You wrote:
>>
>> If the components are "fine" then why did he have to
>> 1. Replace his original fuse box with one from a later model?( He said 
>> the
>> wiring had been hacked into but that shouldn't have effected the fuse 
>> box.)
>>
>>  That statement clearly shows how much you know about
>>>>>
>>>> electricity--and this is coming from a guy who freely admits that he
>> knows a bit, but not a lot.  I clearly stated that the previous owner had
>> hacked my wiring to such a degree that it actually caused electrical 
>> fires,
>> more than just one.  The result was (among other things) melted wires in 
>> the
>> center of the harness, and a torched fusebox.  A fusebox that has melted 
>> and
>> caught fire because of a previous owner's idiocy should be replaced--and 
>> I
>> did, with a completely ordinary, used, stock fusebox and harness out of
>> Charlie Puckett's 1974 Pantera (he gutted it to turn it into a race car).
>>  His car had 20-30K miles on it or something, was completely stock, and 
>> both
>> the harness and fusebox were absolutely perfect, with no signs of 
>> distress
>> at all from their 20+ years of service up to that point.
>>
>>
>>
>>  2. Modify the original circuitry and install the Mosely relay setup
>>>
>> for the
>> fans?
>>
>>  Because, as I clearly stated to you (repeatedly), the stock
>>>>>
>>>> circuitry is adequate when stock components are used; when higher-power
>> components are substituted, electrical upgrades are then necessary.  As 
>> it
>> is, I initially had higher-power fans installed, with the stock fusebox, 
>> and
>> although I saw no signs of distress, I later chose to upgrade the system 
>> and
>> move the load for the fans off the stock fuses and onto an aux fusebox as 
>> a
>> preventative measure.  The fans are the only components in my car that
>> aren't powered by the stock fusebox.
>>
>>
>>
>>  3. Add an auxiliary fuse box to supplement the stock components that
>>>
>> are
>> "absolutely fine"?
>> Doesn't sound stock to me!
>>
>>  Again, you're failing to understand.  The aux fuse box supports the
>>>>>
>>>> aux high-power components *only* (just the fans and the headlights). 
>>>> The
>> stock fusebox powers all the remaining systems in the car just fine.
>>
>> If I had stock headlights, the stock wiring for that circuit might be 
>> okay.
>>  But since I chose to add high-power halogen lights, it made sense to
>> install relays to move the load from the switch, which isn't built to 
>> take
>> that higher draw.  At the same time, the power that feeds the headlights
>> through those relays comes from an aux fusebox, and the stock wires are 
>> used
>> solely to control the relays.  The rest of the externl and internal 
>> lights
>> are powered normally.
>>
>> Those are the only two modifications in my car's electrical system (oh, 
>> and
>> I've got an MSD ignition, if you want to count that).
>>
>> If I had nothing but stock components in my car, the stock fusebox would 
>> be
>> doing the job just fine, just as it is for so many others out there.  As 
>> it
>> is, just two systems have had their power source changed.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Explain to me how a heavily modified electrical system with the
>>>
>> addition of
>> relays  and an additional fuse box  supports his intital claim that *the
>> stock fuse box is "Fine "
>>
>>  If you don't understand by now, you never will....
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>  Here is another example of Mike 's confusing his opinion with a fact.
>>>
>> He
>> said:
>>
>>> "There are over a hundred Panteras in PCNC.  Only a handful are
>>>>>
>>>> running
>> on anything other than the stock fusebox, and none of them have any
>> systemic
>> electrical problems.  So your statement is patently false."
>>
>> Where is the documentary evidence to support this statement. Did he 
>> survey
>> the owners?
>>
>>  No.  Unlike some people, I don't just sit behind a computer and
>>>>>
>>>> spout theories.  On a routine basis, I actually get out and TALK to
>> people, spend time with them in person, drive their Panteras, and work on
>> them.  For instance, I've driven seven, no, eight different Panteras this
>> month alone.  You can learn an awful lot by actually being around other
>> people and their cars, and talking with them, and most importantly, 
>> either
>> working on them or at least being present when people who are more 
>> capable
>> are working on them (which, when it comes to electricity, is my chosen
>> practice).
>>
>>
>>  How many have altered their electrical system?
>>>
>>
>>  Locally, perhaps half, maybe a few more.  Only a small handful have
>>>>>
>>>> chosen to replace their fuseboxes however.  Due to his proximity and 
>>>> the
>> excellence of his product, a few PCNC folks have chosen to install Rich
>> Boschert's relay kit, which follows the Moseley kit architecture but adds 
>> a
>> few additional circuits and relays; many others have the Moseley kit 
>> because
>> it's been available much longer.
>>
>>
>>  How many are
>>>
>> having electrical problems?
>>
>>  Off the top of my head, I can only think of one person in the local
>>>>>
>>>> area who has any electrical issues at the moment (her windshield wiper
>> system quit working all of a sudden).  Nobody has taken the time to
>> investigate it yet because the weather is nice at the moment; it won't 
>> start
>> raining until October.  Bill Taylor kindly built me a specialized, 
>> dedicated
>> windshield wiper motor tester box; all I have to do is unplug the motor 
>> from
>> the car's wiring harness, plug in the box, hook up the 12V and ground to
>> power the box, and then I can test each position (high speed, low speed,
>> return to park); if the motor passes the test, then the problem will lie
>> upstream.  At that point, I will get out of the way and let the guys in 
>> the
>> club with the pointy hats with moons and stars on them, go to work.
>>
>>
>>  How many use their cars and what is the average
>>>
>> use.
>>
>>  By definition, anybody I talk about is somebody who uses his car,
>>>>>
>>>> because those are the only cars (and more importantly, people)  I'm
>> exposed to.  The nature of this usage varies.
>>
>>
>>  Anybody that has ever written a paper in the pursuit of a degree knows
>>>
>> that when you make a statement of fact , especially one that includes
>> statistical information you must include a bibliography showing the 
>> source
>> of the facts.
>>
>>  Don't hold your breath waiting for me to do that for you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>  In a legal argument any statement of fact must be supported by
>>>
>> documentary evidence in the form of a bibliography. Where is the proof to
>> support these so called" facts"?
>>
>>  It's at  your nearest Pantera gathering--convention, club meeting,
>>>>>
>>>> tech session, party, or whatever.  You should try to get out and attend
>> one sometime.
>>
>>
>>  This is what I have been saying from the
>>>
>> very beginning. Mike mixes facts with his opinions so often that he no
>> longer knows the difference. He pulled this "fact" out of thin air or 
>> some
>> place to rude to mention.
>>
>>  I reported on personal experiences, mine and those of my friends and
>>>>>
>>>> fellow club members, both locally and around the country, and the 
>>>> world.
>>  You can choose to interpret that as 'fact' or 'opinion' as you like.
>>
>>
>>  I would also
>>>
>> like to ask how many Pantera owners have had recurring electrical 
>> problems.
>>
>>  A more valid question would be, "How many owners have recurring
>>>>>
>>>> electrical problems with systems that were not modified, or hacked in
>> some way?"   Chances are, the number would be very small.  Those that do
>> occur, often with the external lighting system, can usually be attributed 
>> to
>> dirt/corrosion on the connectors, or at the grounds.  Jack's advice to 
>> clean
>> those thoroughly is spot-on.  That's a simple maintenance issue, 
>> appropriate
>> for any 40-year-old car, and not something that could fairly be 
>> attributed
>> to a direct fault with the Pantera's electrical setup.
>>
>> When you introduce further datapoints, like, "How many people have had
>> difficulties with their headlight circuits after they changed from the
>> crappy sealed beam lights, to high-power halogen or other high-power 
>> lights
>> without making the necessary modifications to support these components
>> properly?", the incidence of problems or failure would probably go up
>> dramatically.  But the explanation for the problems would also be fairly
>> obvious, to anybody who chose to carefully analyze the situation.
>>
>>
>>  I am done discussing this. When it is no longer possible to separate
>>>
>> the
>> facts from  fiction there is no point in continuing.
>>
>>  I, and I'm sure everyone else, is especially glad to hear of this
>>>>>
>>>> decision.
>>
>> Mike
>>
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