[DeTomaso] Dear Boyd - was Rookie needs help

Wed Aug 25 19:31:42 EDT 2010

As usual, I am late to the conversation and most of what I would say has
been said........except.....#1488 was bone stock when I got her. Pusher fans
abnd all. The fuze box showed melting on the headlight and fan circuits. I
went with Jon Haas's mods and love them.... and him.  Maybe maintenance
would have stopped the impedence heat, who knows. Coincidence that the two
circuits I saw overload in are the two publically considered problematic?  I
don't think so.

On Aug 25, 2010 4:49 PM, "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I stand corrected on that point , he did say halogen not HID. But he also
> said in his first sentence:
>
>>>>The stock components (fuse box and relays), in proper working order,
work
> absolutely fine.
> The one in my car is absolutely perfect.
> If the components are "fine" then why did he have to
> 1. Replace his original fuse box with one from a later model?( He said the
> wiring had been hacked into but that shouldn't have effected the fuse
box.)
> 2. Modify the original circuitry and install the Mosely relay setup for
the
> fans?
> 3. Add an auxiliary fuse box to supplement the stock components that are
> "absolutely fine"?
> Doesn't sound stock to me!
>>>>His quote "The one in my car is absolutely perfect. Admittedly I've
> performed the "Moseley relay kit modification" and have moved the fan
power
> sources to their own aux fusebox. But the stock fusebox is otherwise
> perfectly good and has been working fine for years. In fact, it's only
when
> people start hacking and whacking the electrical system, adding additional
> high-draw accessories (like third radiator fans etc.) that the
> fuseboxbecomes overwhelmed. But that's not down to a design flaw in
> the
> fusebox, that's down to owner buffoonary.
>
> I replaced the entire wiring harness with a STOCK 1974 harness, and the
> fusebox with a STOCK 1974 fusebox, and then wired up everything as it had
> been wired from the factory.
> Subsequent to this, I upgraded the fan and headlight circuits to
accomodate
> my higher-power lights and fans, and in 15 years since I have never
suffered
> even a hint of an electrical problem).
>
> Explain to me how a heavily modified electrical system with the addition
of
> relays and an additional fuse box supports his intital claim that *the
> stock fuse box is "Fine "
> (Sure it is if you replace it with a new one , a new wiring harness, add a
> new circuit and relays for the fans and add an auxillary fuse box) That
must
> fall under the new dictionary's definition of Fine, perfectly
> good,absolutely perfect, stock, and fact.
> In case you missed it it is the Mike Drew dictionary of facts and opinions
> the extremely abridged edition
> *
> They statements are so full of contradictions and hypocrisy it doesn't
merit
> discussing.
> Here is another example of Mike 's confusing his opinion with a fact. He
> said:
>>>>"There are over a hundred Panteras in PCNC. Only a handful are running
> on anything other than the stock fusebox, and none of them have any
systemic
> electrical problems. So your statement is patently false."
>
> Where is the documentary evidence to support this statement. Did he survey
> the owners? How many have altered their electrical system? How many are
> having electrical problems? How many use their cars and what is the
average
> use. Anybody that has ever written a paper in the pursuit of a degree
knows
> that when you make a statement of fact , especially one that includes
> statistical information you must include a bibliography showing the source
> of the facts. In a legal argument any statement of fact must be supported
by
> documentary evidence in the form of a bibliography. Where is the proof to
> support these so called" facts"? This is what I have been saying from the
> very beginning. Mike mixes facts with his opinions so often that he no
> longer knows the difference. He pulled this "fact" out of thin air or some
> place to rude to mention.
>
> There was an earlier post about driving into a brick wall, this should be
> changed to If a fact an an opinion hit head on and each is traveling at
BV2
> (the velocity of bullshit squared) do they merge and both become facts or
> are the forever kept separate based on the law of truth prevailing and
> bullshit always floating to the top because it has no substance .
> I would like to ask John Hass how many Fuse boxes have been sold and how
> many people that actually drive their cars have replaced their fuse boxes.
> He may not wish to divulge his privileged business records. I would also
> like to ask how many Pantera owners have had recurring electrical
problems.
> Boyd
> I am done discussing this. When it is no longer possible to separate the
> facts from fiction there is no point in continuing
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
>
>> Boyd,
>>
>> Actually he wrote halogen lights which is very different from HID lights.
>> Halogen lights draw more power (perhaps as much as twice the current)
than
>> sealed beams do.
>>
>> snip
>> >>>Particularly with the later cars, if the owners leave them alone, they
>> are perfectly reliable as they came from the factory. Normally it's the
>> owner modifications that introduce electrical faults--install super-duper
>> Halogen headlights, sizzle the headlight switch. Install monster radiator
>> fans,
>> sizzle the fusebox. If you're going to modify your car electrically, be
>> sure to do it right. And if you don't do it right, don't blame the car
>> when
>> it sputters to a stop or bursts into flame.
>> eosnip
>>
>> Tomas
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
>> [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]On Behalf Of boyd casey
>> Sent: den 25 augusti 2010 05:36
>> To: fastgrandma at aol.com
>> Cc: MikeLDrew at aol.com; fresnofinches at aol.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Dear Boyd - was Rookie needs help
>>
>>
>> He may be saying this now-
>>
>> "My criticisms about certain Panteras don't involve aesthetic
>> considerations, but rather low-class "There, I fixed it" mechanical
>> hackery."
>>
>> But that's not what he has said in the past.
>> He was critical of HID lights in his post to Peter the newbie by some
>> unrelated coincidence my car has HID cats eye lights.
>> Mine are far from Mechanical hackery they were made by Chris Difani who
is
>> probably one of the most skilled craftsmen on the list
>> He also implied HID lights were a contributing factor to electrical
>> problems and fuse box problems. The facts are that HID lights actually
>> draw
>> less current then sealed beam lights.( I didn't put HID lights on my car
>> until after I installed the new fuse box.)
>> He told me my choice in wheels would make my car or me "Look like a
Ghetto
>> master" or something to that effect
>> He said the the fuse box is perfectly fine and adequate for the car But
he
>> has replace d his, replaced his wiring harness, modified his fan
circuits,
>> added relays and added a secondary fuse box. Why do those things if the
>> fuse
>> box is so good? To me that's hypocrisy.
>> I'm not going to repeat every example of criticisms that have nothing to
do
>> with quality of work and everything to do with "aesthetics"
>> I have a Pantera electronics fuse box. I bought it because the fuses with
>> the exposed copper strip are antiquated and the glass tube fuses that
made
>> the fuse box some what serviceable were getting impossible for me to
find.
>> When I would slam my passenger door my lights would go out (my sealed
beam
>> lights) I had numerous and repeated electrical problems all directly
>> related
>> to the fuse box.
>> Then My headlight relay went bad. SO Bill said he had never seen one fail
.
>> Mine did , I sent it to him to study. I replaced the relay with a Pantera
>> electronics headlight controller. Now my headlight doors always work and
>> with my HID lights I can actually drive at night. I did the fan relay
>> installation that is outlined in the " Pantera place" web site . The web
>> site I suggested peter the newbie familiarize himself with. Showing
someone
>> where to find the answers to their questions makes them self sufficent
and
>> helps them to actually learn about their car, instead of just being told
>> how
>> to fix it.
>> By the way Mike gave the same advice right after I did, I told the guy
>> about
>> the schematics and SO Bill , so did mike, right after I did.
>> He made disparaging remarks about the suggestions I made to Peter (with
>> out
>> mentioning my name but it was so obvious it made me sick. If you are
going
>> to be a prick be a prick to my face don't make veiled insults have some
>> balls!.
>> Last week he said the Brembo brake modification I just put on my car was"
>> home made and hobbled together" He doesn't know anything about it. But he
>> is
>> knocking the work of an entire group of people and making judgemental
>> statements that are baseless. The thing that bothered me was not his
>> baseless opinion but the possiability that some other newbie or someone
who
>> thinks Mike Drew actually knows what he is talking about may take his
>> comments seriously and that could hurt the efforts and years of work that
>> went into this project. That's why I have said and asked repeatedly for
him
>> to stop mixing his opinions up with facts. He does know allot about
>> panteras. Why not stick to the factual information and save the
editorials
>> for the peanut gallery.
>> This is the last thing I am going to say about the subject. Unless
someone
>> starts making unsubstantiated, baseless, insulting, derogatory or racist
>> comments again and portraying them as anything other then their own
narrow
>> minded opinions.
>> Boyd
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 10:49 PM, <fastgrandma at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Maybe your sign off reflects your knowledge.
>> >
>> >
>> > Mke
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: MikeLDrew at aol.com
>> > To: fresnofinches at aol.com; detomaso at realbig.com
>> > Sent: Tue, Aug 24, 2010 6:30 pm
>> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Dear Boyd - was Rookie needs help
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > In a message dated 8/24/10 9 56 27, fresnofinches at aol.com writes:
>> >
>> >
>> > > Agreed, Mike is a bit biased to the more stock looking car. His
choice.
>> > > And mine.
>> > >
>> > >>>In my column however, you'll see that while I note that
>> > Ferrari/Porsche/etc. purists look down on modified Panteras, I
>> specifically
>> > said
>> > that *I*
>> > don't, and in fact I appreciate the breadth and depth of the Pantera;
>> it's
>> > what makes it completely unique.
>> >
>> > My criticisms about certain Panteras don't involve aesthetic
>> > considerations, but rather low-class "There, I fixed it" mechanical
>> > hackery.
>> > For
>> > instance, when I bought my car, it was rusted to shreds on the right
side
>> > wheelhouse. You know the little hole where the parking brake cable
>> passes
>> > through
>> > the sheetmetal between the inside of the car, and the caliper? My
>> > wheelhouse
>> > had a crack completely through it, that started at that hole and ran
all
>> > the way up to the turn signal bucket! The car was literally splitting
>> > apart
>> > there. So Jethro 'fixed' it by getting a piece of sheetmetal about the
>> > size of the playing card, drilling four holes in it, then bolting it on
>> > either
>> > side of the crack about halfway up!
>> >
>> > The wheelhouse tubes were completely gone for the bottom two inches or
>> so;
>> > Jethro 'fixed' it by getting a piece of steel strap, about 2 inches
wide,
>> > drilling a couple of holes, and running it between the upper A-arm
>> mounting
>> > bolt and the lower A-arm mounting bolt!
>> >
>> > The radiator fans were evidently acting up on him, so he 'fixed' it by
>> > bypassing the relays, and wiring each fan directly to its own 1-amp (!)
>> > switch
>> > mounted in the bottom opening on the instrument panel. But hey, they
>> were
>> > illuminated! When I took it apart (the day after taking possession of
>> the
>> > car), I found the wires burned and the switches melted.
>> >
>> > THIS is the kind of hackery that I object to. Boyd, you can criticize
>> me
>> > all you want for my stance on this particular topic, but I think most
>> will
>> > agree that there are some lines, particularly mechanical lines, that
>> > shouldn't be crossed.
>> >
>> > Aesthetics are a much more subjective thing, but I would be
hard-pressed
>> to
>> > find anybody who believes that putting fake sidepipes from the front
>> > fenders, shag carpeting (to include the headliner), and an avocado
green
>> > vinyl
>> > top
>> > on a Pantera is an appropriate thing to do. Again, Boyd, if you choose
>> to
>> > go that route, knock yourself out. :>)
>> > >
>> > > >But the gist of his column was, as usual, worthy of endorsement.
>> > >
>> > >>>I'm glad you agree. I did receive numerous private e-mails from
>> > various people when that column first appeared, all of which said
>> > variations of
>> > "Amen brother!" Boyd is the first person I know of who expresses a
>> > contrary
>> > view and defends those sorts of actions. But it takes all kinds, I
>> > guess....
>> >
>> > Mke
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