[DeTomaso] speaking of wheels falling off---

Mon Aug 23 10:32:02 EDT 2010

The reality is that all the Physics formulas are based on mass traveling in
a vacuum. When you get to real world situations the faster you are going the
worse it's going to be. Very few head collisions are actually straight" head
on" and off set impacts in either a "head on" or just hitting another car or
fixed object are much worse. You are absorbing all the energy in a smaller
space instead of spreading it across the entire energy absorbing  structure
of most modern car designs. The difference in mass is another factor that
gives a clear disadvantage to the lighter car.  The best way to survive a
crash is to not have one in the first place, when I worked for BMW they used
to stress that one off the things that made their cars safer was not just
impact attenuation but accident avoidance, the ability of the car to
maneuver at high speed (in other words a car that handles well so an alert
driver could theoretically maneuver his way out of an oncoming accident if
the driver had the ability to make split second decisions and react
effectively. Unfortunately most people freeze while their mind tries to
process the "fight or flight" instinct and winds up doing nothing but
crashing. Very few people have the reaction speed of Formula one drivers
(which is what you need when you have events with closing speeds in the 120
mph range) At 120mph closing speed the two vehicles are approaching each
other at 176 ft per second. That does not give you much time to react.
Boyd
P.S. Sorry for the error in my physics formula I said E =MxV when it should
have been (as Goran correctly posted Momentum = MxV
Everyone knows E=MxC2 or Energy =mass x the speed of light squared , a
formula that most people don't understand and has nothing to do with car
collisions. It's bee almost forty years since I took a physics course so I
apologize for the inaccuracies :>)

On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:

>  So generally speaking, the larger the mass that is coming at you head
> on, the closer you're getting to actually obtaining that 120 MPH
> difference rather than the simple 60?
>
> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
> &  Shelley Marie
> Spokane, WA
> ******************************
> http://www.racingagainstautism.com
> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
>
>
> On 8/22/2010 21:38, Will Kooiman wrote:
> > I thought we said the same thing.
> >
> > They crashed 4 identical cars in the show.
> >
> > The first car hit a wall at 60mph.  It was about what you'd expect.
> >
> > The second car hit the wall at 120mph.  The car flipped, and crunched the
> > car about twice as far as the first. The crash was spectacular.  Anyone
> > inside would have been killed with or without an airbag.
> >
> > The third crash involved two cars hitting each other at 60mph.  The
> damage
> > was almost identical to the first crash, both in the amount of debris and
> > the compression of the cars.
> >
> > We were always told in high school that if you hit someone head-on, the
> > damage is the combined speed.  Not so.  If you hit someone of the same
> mass
> > at the same speed (each going 60), you're both going to stop as if you
> both
> > hit a wall - at 60.
> >
> > If you hit a train head-on, you're probably drunk, so who cares.
> >
> > If you hit an 18-wheeler head-on and both of you are going 60, you have
> to
> > deal with the mass of the 18-wheeler, so you're going to get creamed,
> > literally, whereas the 18-wheeler will have plenty of damage, but he'll
> > probably survive.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> On
> > Behalf Of boyd casey
> > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 11:23 PM
> > To: Mike Thomas
> > Cc: Will Kooiman; detomaso at realbig.com
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] speaking of wheels falling off---
> >
> > So Will and Mike both saw the same show but apparently came away with
> > different interpretations. Combining the speeds of car A and car b is
> > simplifying the physics involved for the measurement of energy which is
> > E=Mass x velocity so if both  cars had the same mass their speeds would
> be
> > combined so the statement that I made was essentially correct although
> > simplified. If one vehicle has substantially greater mass then the other
> > (like a car hitting a train head on) The car is obliterated and the train
> > is barely  slowed down. But if two identical masses hit head on and both
> are
> > traveling at 60 mph and they are in a vacuum the energy of the impact
> will
> > be the equivalent of the energy of one vehicle of double the mass
> traveling
> > at 120 mph and hitting a fixed immovable object
> > In either case I wouldn't want to be in any of the vehicles!  And getting
> > hit by a wheel and tire coming at you head on at 60 mph would suck. If
> you
> > were also traveling in the opposite direction towards the tire and you
> were
> > traveling at 60 mph it would suck just as much!
> >
> > Boyd
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Mike Thomas<mbefthomas at comcast.net
> >wrote:
> >
> >> The Myth Busters on Discovery Channel did a pretty did a segment on
> > exactly
> >> this recently, and also disproved that the impact is equal to the
> combined
> >> speed at contact.  Pretty graphic, always done with their slight touch
> of
> >> showmanship.
> >>
> >> Mike Thomas
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> ]
> >> On
> >>   Behalf Of Will Kooiman
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 6:17 PM
> >> To: detomaso at realbig.com
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] speaking of wheels falling off---
> >>
> >> Slightly off topic, but a head-on collision isn't car1 speed + car2
> speed.
> >>
> >> 60mph car head-on with 60mph car isn't like hitting a wall at 120mph.
>  It
> >> was proven very dramatically on myth busters.
> >>
> >> I believe it's more complicated than that.  It's has to do with the
> total
> >> force.  Car1 speed * car1 weight + car2 speed * car2 weight = total
> force.
> >>
> >> Force applied to car1 = total force/car1 weight.
> >> Force applied to car2 = total force/car2 weight.
> >>
> >> It they're both going 60mph and they're both the same weight, it's just
> >> like
> >> they both hit a wall going 60mph.  (assuming they head dead-on, glancing
> >> blows change everything)
> >>
> >> If car1 is 3,000 lbs and car2 is 30,000 lbs (big rig), car1 is going to
> be
> >> much worse than head-on, and the 18-wheeler will have much less damage.
> >>
> >> I just made up those formulas, but I bet they're correct or at least
> > close.
> >> BTW, the wheel that went through the windshield was probably going
> >> effectively 120mph, simply because the windshield wouldn't have slowed
> the
> >> tire down much at all.
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> ]
> >> On
> >> Behalf Of boyd casey
> >> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 7:11 PM
> >> To: Art Stephens
> >> Cc: JDeRyke at aol.com; detomaso at realbig.com
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] speaking of wheels falling off---
> >>
> >> I have heard of several incidents where wheels came off of vehicles and
> > the
> >> vehicle that lost the wheel did ok but the errant wheel killed the
> driver
> >> of
> >> the car it hit. This has happened more then once in recent memory. The
> one
> >> I
> >> remember more clearly the wheel cam e off a car on an interstate and
> >> crossed
> >> the median. As you know the speed in a head on is car +car b + speed of
> >> impact so a car traveling at 60 mph and a loose wheel traveling at 60
> mph
> >> and bouncing through the windshield and landing smack in someones lap at
> >> 120
> >> mph effective speed, it's not a pretty picture!. When I was in college
> >> (Loyola in New Orleans) I was driving a VW "Super Bug" from my fathers
> > Ford
> >> dealerships used car lot when I noticed a VW wheel Passing me on the
> left!
> >> The  left rear wheel came off and  the next thing I knew I was sliding
> to
> > a
> >> stop and the wheel was making great time on it's own! Luckily it didn't
> > hit
> >> anyone. I was always having problems with the cars that I was given to
> >> drive
> >> from the cheapest used car inventory. And every time I had a problem I
> got
> >> downgraded to an even cheaper car until finally I was relegated to the
> >> status of pedestrian!
> >> Boyd
> >>
> >> On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Art Stephens
> >> <artstephens at verizon.net>wrote:
> >>
> >>> When I crashed my car,  one of the rear wheels with broken upright,
> >>> half shaft and disc brake assembly attached,  was found days later in
> >>> a gully about a quarter mile past the car!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From:<JDeRyke at aol.com>
> >>> To:<detomaso at realbig.com>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 12:15 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] speaking of wheels falling off---
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> I've also had a 'memorable' experience with OTHER PEOPLE'S wheels
> >> falling
> >>>> off. Commuting to work one morning in N CA in my modified Corvair, a
> >>>> cement pumper truck on its way to a job site broke a rear axle
> >>>> flange off, freeing a gigantic 'flotation' tire, wheel&  brake drum
> >>>> at 50 mph on the freeway.
> >>> He
> >>>> was some ways behind me and I saw the accident in my mirrors, but as
> >> race
> >>>> announcers say, in heavy traffic 'I had nowhere to go' except to
> >>>> lean away.
> >>>> The 250-lb assembly bounced off guard rails and hit my drivers door
> >>>> a glancing blow that knocked the 2500-lb car sideways half a lane,
> >>>> in spite of the traction from the same size tires I run on the
> >>>> Pantera. The wheel
> >> finally
> >>>> stopped in the median-strip Oleander bushes. Lucky me- I was the
> >>>> only
> >> car
> >>>> it hit!
> >>>>   The dent in my car was a foot deep but luckily was confined only to
> >>>> the door.
> >>>> A gigantic traffic jam occurred between my banged up car and the
> >> concrete
> >>>> truck tipped at an angle across 2 lanes. Once he saw I wasn't hurt
> >>>> or angry, the truck driver (also the business owner!) was very
> >>>> apologetic but was MUCH more worried about the full load of concrete
> >>>> he was to have processed, rapidly setting up behind us in a second
> >>>> truck (pre-cell phone days). 2 hrs later I drove the beat up car
> >>>> into work and got no crap about being
> >> late.
> >>>> His
> >>>> business insurance bought me a new door and a full paint job. FWIW-
> >>>> J DeRyke _______________________________________________
> >>>>
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> >
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