[DeTomaso] # of surviving cars
GW
gow2 at rc-tech.net
Tue Apr 20 18:15:44 EDT 2010
I talked to Hall last year before he passed. I know mine was done there
but Hall and those at the shop said, yep, probably was, looks familiar,
and that was all I could get from them. Obviously they were more
concerned about Hall at the time and I was not about to press for more
info.....BUT......It is a real shame Hall did not keep better records or
his own little registry. It could have been comparable to something such
as "Yenco".
G
michael at michaelshortt.com wrote:
> I agree, once a DPR was started, it would become exactly what you
> described. Those willing to go back further could have that option I
> think, I know that my car came from the seller in FL and I know that
> he bought it from Hall Pantera, anything more than that would have to
> be found at Hall or by the VIN at the DMV ( is there a non FBI, CIA,
> NSA way to do a 50 state search by VIN records?)
>
> As far as modifications, etc. You're 100% right, most of us don't
> care, it's just about its birth condition, date of build, specs,
> options, colors, maybe the original dealership that sold it would be
> cool info., but the history for each would have to go back only as far
> as could be proven, no guesses or assumptions.
>
> It has to start some where and some time, why not now?
>
>
> Michael Shortt
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:59 PM, GW <gow2 at rc-tech.net
> <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net>> wrote:
>
>
> A couple points, first I think the Pantera group differs a little
> in that; as Ken said we often (with exception) don't care about
> originality and we don't rate cars into "But mine is a C5, But
> mine is a C6 dated....etc".
>
> At the same time the history of these cars often does not follow
> into the nice little predispositioned package we like it to be.
> For example, if you follow the date codes in debriefing the VIN
> often it's flat out wrong for a number of reasons. It is a general
> thing. When people go out and gather info on 3000 cars making
> assumptions the information is meaningless and often is the source
> of misinformation which is worse then doing nothing.
>
> There are simple questions which we would like to know about our
> cars. The older they are the muddier the trail gets; especially
> with muddy guesses and misinformation.
>
> As I said there has to be verified info and contributed info which
> can provide a bread trail to some extent but not specifically
> verified. This info should come from an owner and not gathered
> from the internet. It should give you a point to contact previous
> owners even to the extent of say 3 owners ago in case the last
> owner can not be contacted. Stuff like that. In restoring #1905 I
> have uncovered a 1000questions but no bread trail. Data in a blog
> with guessed info don't help. Some of this stuff should only be
> available to special situations and current owners. As new owners
> take over, they should be able to continue the info trail.
>
> As far a pedigree I don't think we would see it as much that as
> much a car with obtainable history. Who owned it, where did it
> come from, what is different, how was it changed, by whom, etc.
>
> It also has the advantage of theft recovery. I have often thought
> an organizational based registry should also have a page dedicated
> to all know Pantera thefts.
>
>
> G
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> michael at michaelshortt.com <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Mark McWhinney
> <msm at portata.com <mailto:msm at portata.com>
> <mailto:msm at portata.com <mailto:msm at portata.com>>> wrote:
>
> A few notes.
>
> * POCA would very much like to have a full registry,
> however the time
> and effort to do so are huge. A while back, Chuck
> estimated that
> he had
> put in over 2,000 hours on the registry to collect info,
> clean it up,
> get pictures, verify the info, etc. There is also a lot of
> time
> to hook
> up old info with new info to form a timeline of ownership,
> mods, and
> events. Of course, there is time and effort to build and
> maintain the
> software and general website work. For the work that I have
> seen
> him do,
> I am sure that it is well beyond 2,000 hours at this point
> (that's the
> equivalent of working fulltime for more a year.)
>
> I think Chuck has done a wonderful thing with his site.
> I don't think I implied anything else, what i siad was that you
> can't have it accessible and private at the same time
> and a password site seems to be the only way you can do it.
>
>
> * We have talked to Chuck about incorporating his registry into
> POCA and
> move it onto the POCA website, but he has chosen to keep
> things as is.
>
> The information gathering process is very time consuming and
> laborious,
> Chuck should be commended for doing the work.
>
>
> * Chuck has gone to great lengths to keep data private. He
> does not
> release owner info without first contacting the owner for
> permission to
> release. (I have noticed that people on this forum to tend
> to post
> other people's contact info publically, which makes me cringe.)
>
> * Chuck has around 3,000 cars in the registry, so it has the
> majority of
> the surviving cars.
>
> That's nice to know and I think probably 90% of the cars that
> are left and I'd bet that of those 3,000
> that 50% are not road worthy.
>
>
> * Peter Havlik has assembled a registry of the late model
> Panteras, VINs
> 9000 through 9641. He sent me a CD with an update which I
> will load
> onto the POCA website shortly.
>
> So Mark, why don't you and the POCA people meet with Chuck
> in the middle,
> as a mediator ( yes I do that too ) it's all about seeing why
> he wantsts what he wants and
> why you want what you (POCA ) want.
> I'm sure that if overtures were made to Chuck that he would
> respond
> to a business proposition whereby he is compensated for his
> efforts as a percentage
> of a Proper Registration Effort with Official Documentation.
> If we all thought a proper "Detomaso Pantera Registry"
> hereinafter "DPR" document
> added value to a car, then it simply would.
> The first question a future buyer would ask, Does your car
> have a DPR Certificate?
> As far as what the certificate implies is up to each
> individual, I understand how Ken G can think what he wrote, we
> all have the same thoughts,
> but these are because of bad experiences with other clubs
> where SOME members are pricks, we have one or two of those
> too. All marques do.
> Posuers, assholes and jerk offs. Check book and Trust fund
> babies and people who don't look like me or use the wrong hand
> to write with or
> have red Panteras instead of Yellow Panteras ( the only REAL
> Pantera ).
> But what I'm putting out there is that if Chuck could use his
> list to market the DPR and when you join it then becomes POCA
> property,
> then EVERYBODY wins. If the DPR certificate is 75.00, Fine,
> Pay Chuck 37.50 and keep 37.50, use 5.00 to print a neato
> Document ( suitable for framing ) and 15.00
> to enter the info into a website and put the 10.00 difference
> in the general fund. Everybody wins and if Chuck can get 3,000
> people to sign up, he makes $112,500 for his one year of work
> on the project, everybody wins!
> If you and I think the DPR certificate is worth 75.00, then
> it is, I know one thing for sure, when I sell the car, if
> ever! I'll make my $75.00 back and do my best to tell the
> buyer that buying a car WITHOUT a DPR is a BAD Idea and he
> should reconsider any purchase that doesn't have one.
> as far as it being a separate club, and dealing with snobs,
> life is full of that in everything we do, the real difference
> to me is that the Pantera Community is different, it always
> has been and it always will be.
> Forgive me for my words, this is not a cars for Pu^^%$# and
> country club golfers ( and IMHO not having such realization
> is what hindered the car to start with ,
> marketing a Pantera next to a Town Car and Continental, WTF
> were they thinking ?) Hello, old Dr. Smith and Mrs. Old Dr.
> Smith, here is our 8,000 Luxo barge that you are used to buying OR
> we have this sporty car...shhhh, you wouldn't like it....now
> this one has a padded vinyl roof...PLEEEEEEEZE )
> again, just my Opinion, but if I could buy a certificate from
> the POCA that was a REAL "DPR" document that had official
> weight and feel,and was backed up with a current website
> accessible by owners only, I'dl buy it right now!
> So have you offered Chuck 112,500 or just wanted his work for
> FREE,
> Chuck, have you actually considered selling the work product
> to help the brand survive?
> The answer is in the middle somewhere, the effort is working
> hard to find exactly where and then doing it.
> Michael Shortt
>
>
> See more info about Pantera registries at
> http://www.poca.com/index.php/cl/reg
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> <mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com>
> <mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> <mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com>>
> [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> <mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com>
> <mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
> <mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com>>]
> On Behalf Of michael at michaelshortt.com
> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com>
> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com>>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 1:26 PM
> To: GW
> Cc: JDeRyke at aol.com <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com>
> <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com>>;
> detomaso at realbig.com <mailto:detomaso at realbig.com>
> <mailto:detomaso at realbig.com <mailto:detomaso at realbig.com>>
>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] # of surviving cars
>
> I think most people agree with you.
>
> If the POCA had a clue, they would realize that this could
> be a small
> profit
> center for Official Documentation and Registration,
> But considering my experience with them just keeping membership
> records
> and
> billing straight, well that's a lot to hope for.
> I know that the players have changed and I know there are not
> enough of
> us
> to hire full time employees like the Mustang or Shelby
> folks.
> But if I could get an official looking document that
> verified the
> car's
> build date, original colors, specs, etc. and this became a
> part of a
> National Registry
> and an ADDED Value to MY Carr because I had it ( like
> Bloomington, the
> GTO
> registry, Cobras or something ) then it would be worth the
> 50.00 to
> 100.00
> it should cost to
> establish such a list.
>
> It will only work if there is an incentive to make it
> happen, the
> incentive
> has to be CASH,
> or private Brazilian Girls attention ( so I'm told ) and since
> pandering
> is
> illegal, looks like Cash wins out.
>
> The documentation will only be worth anything if we all say
> it's worth
> something, but as we all know, the Pantera community
> is made up of rebels, miscreants and hell raisers ( thus
> the appeal of
> the
> car and probably why we all get along on this forum )
> and not "Joiners".
> This is one of the few groups that don't applaud the increased
> values of
> cars, but derides those cars as "not being worth that much"
> as has been said," I have seen the enemy and it is US"
>
> We have to be better cheerleaders for each other, build up
> the brand
> value
> and start to account for ourselves
> better if we are going to build up the value of these cars.
>
> A registry is one way to fast track the effort and POCA
> should in my
> opinion take the lead in such an endeavor.
>
> all of course in just my opinion,
>
> Michael Shortt
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:08 PM, GW <gow2 at rc-tech.net
> <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net>
> <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net>>> wrote:
>
> > I would also like to see it backed by a group such as
> POCA. In doing
> so it
> > would have to have strict rules or guidelines as to what
> content is
> verified
> > and to perhaps to what level of verification. Anything
> less would
> amount to
> > Wikipedea and only muddy the waters of what is true which
> is why
> most
> will
> > not participate in anything less..
> >
> >
> > G
> >
> >
> > michael at michaelshortt.com
> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com>
> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com
> <mailto:michael at michaelshortt.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> All,
> >> Here's the problem and one that we all have issues with
> to some
> degree or
> >> another.
> >> Who gets to see the registry and what information gets
> shared?
> >> Name of Owner
> >> Email of Owner
> >> Date of Acquisition
> >> VIN of Car
> >> Photos of Car
> >> City of Car
> >> That's what I'm willing to share,
> >> where it lives, stays parked or stored, etc.
> >> isn't going to be shared with strangers.
> >> Mailing me a bunch of crap isn't going to happen.
> >> Asking how much I paid isn't going to happen.
> >> So how can we establish a sight that is user
> controlled, yet
> maintainable
> >> and linked to all the others?
> >> I own the domain "detomasopanteraregistry.com
> <http://detomasopanteraregistry.com/>
> <http://detomasopanteraregistry.com/> <
> >> http://detomasopanteraregistry.com
> <http://detomasopanteraregistry.com/>
>
> <http://detomasopanteraregistry.com/>>" and have for years,
> >>
> >> when a reasonable and viable answer to the above is
> presented,
> I'd be
> >> happy
> >> to allow the domain name use for such a purpose.
> >> It should not be a for profit deal.
> >> I know of no other current idea aside from the effort of
> Chuck's (
> which
> >> requires a password )
> >> which is good for privacy but also a PIA, clearly you
> can't have it
> both
> >> ways.
> >> One idea may be a group effort on a social networking site
> >> with everyone creating a page for their car and linking
> all these
> pages
> >> together as friends...but it requires each owner and
> when you add
> people
> >> you always add problems.
> >> Can the registry software of Shelby or others be licensed?
> >> Michael Shortt
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 2:07 PM, <JDeRyke at aol.com
> <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com>
> <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com>> <mailto:
>
> >> JDeRyke at aol.com <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com>
> <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com <mailto:JDeRyke at aol.com>>>> wrote:
> >>
> >> In a message dated 4/20/10 12:45:46 AM,
> gow2 at rc-tech.net <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net>
> <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net>>
> >> <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net>
> <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net <mailto:gow2 at rc-tech.net>>> writes:
> >>
> >> > When POCA or some other club gets involved and
> makes a real
> official
> >> > effort like the way the Corvettes and other groups
> have, it
> >> would make a
> >> > difference.
> >> >
> >> Agreed; want to volunteer to form a group to do one?
> That's the
> main
> >> problem, Bill- everyone wants access to such a
> registry but
> no one
> >> wants to spend
> >> the years it takes to compile one. Which is a moving
> target
> anyway
> >> since
> >> details change daily due to sales, accidents, owner
> upgrades
> etc.
> >> And POCA
> >> typically only offers encouragement- they're watching
> their
> >> pennies pretty
> >> carefully these days. Finally, most good records
> reside in
> vendors
> >> files, which
> >> they guard pretty carefully. Good luck- J DeRyke
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael L. Shortt
> >> Savannah, Georgia
> >> www.michaelshortt.com <http://www.michaelshortt.com/>
> <http://www.michaelshortt.com/>
> <http://www.michaelshortt.com
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> >> michael at michaelshortt.com
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