[DeTomaso] The Fake Pantera Lives????

boyd casey boyd411 at gmail.com
Wed Oct 7 19:49:44 EDT 2009


Mike I am surprised at you casual approach to this. Your are normally such a
stickler for detail and accuracy you have even corrected the grammar in
e-mails. The first guy selling this care had it listed as a Detomaso Pantera
. That is a fraudulent misrepresentation. It is probably true that no one
that knows anything about "real Panteras" is going to be fooled by this but
some poor sap who thinks he is getting a bargain may be deceived. While you
choose to adorn your kit car with replica manufacturers tags or trade marked
names you are doing it to make an accurate or more realistic replica. The
manufacturers of replicars make it a point not to include copyrighted or
trademarked logos or tags on their products prior to their sale to the
public. I have read of manufacturers taking legal action to prevent
manufacturers of replicas being sued for attempting to do just that. There
have been numerous cases of people trying to sell counterfeit AC cobras as
originals. There have been so many different versions of "Cobra "cars made
since the earl 60's that it is easy to see how someone might be fooled.
There were cars made under licence , there were cars made as later attempts
to resurrect Cobra's as a viable car company. There were English AC cars
that were converted to 289 ci and 427 ci and presented as US AC cobras. When
the original is worth up to $500,000.00 people will try all sorts of things.
Your decision to festoon your car with badges from the original is not an
attempt to deceive anyone. Taking a cheap Japanese watch and sticking a
"Rolex " label on it is fraudulent and illegal ( if you are selling it) It
is copyright and trade mark infringement ) and* illegal even if you disclose
that it is a knock off*. So if you think it's amusing that someone stuck a
Detomaso body tag on this car and it is  just harmless fun you are entitled
to your opinion. I personally take it more seriously. Most of if not all the
"novelty body tags I have seen for sale were silver vinyl not aluminum (
like the real tags) I think that if you are going to go through life as an
anal retentive obsessed with accuracy and detail and truth you should be
consistent. In fact instead of dissecting my post and itemizing the points
you found acceptable, the points you found ridiculous and the points you
found amusing  why don't you stick to answering people who actually ask for
your opinion or help.( Like I have done on many occasions ) I don't remember
anyone asking you for your critique of the content , grammar,  or validity
of their opinion.. Although you are very knowledgeable concerning Panteras
( and many other subjects) I also don't remember you being nominated or
elected to the position or arbiter of  post content, , tastefullness of
Pantera modifications,  critic or all around editor of biglist content. You
are certainly free to continue in your self appointed role  so long as are
amusing yourself.  But as far as facts go ( in the format you seem to be so
fond of::

>>>> I said:

"If the Detomaso Vin tag t(with the number removed is an authentic
Detomaso tag salvaged from a wrecked car it is illegal to remove it and
place it on another car. "
 You said: ">>>Okay, I'm just laughing now."
The fact is that it is a Felony to remove a vin tag from any part of a car
( whether it is placed on another car or not) it is a way of
tracking salvaged auto parts and  prevent criminals from stealing cars and
chopping them up and using the parts to build other cars. The vin number is
displayed on numerous parts in many more locations on modern cars for that
very reason. It is an additional Felony to attach a vin # from another car
to a car other then the one that the vin # actually belongs to. As a person
that became a victim of just that type of fraud I don't laugh when I think
about the $40,000 Toyota Land cruiser that had been "tagged " by car
theives. and the purchased by me . This episode cost me a total of $65,000
between the purchase and subsequent legal fees. You can laugh all you want I
take it very seriously.

I said: "Putting a Detomaso tag on a car
that was not manufactured by Detomaso is deceptive. "
You said:
>>>"Oh please--nobody is trying to pretend that this is a real Pantera--the
ad purports that it's a kit car.  And anybody who convinced himself that it
was a real De Tomaso, deserves what he gets!"
I was talking about the first seller. *He was trying to put something over
on someone.  He was trying to do exactly what you say  no one was trying to
do "Nobody is trying to pretend this is a real Pantera" He listed the car
on E-bay as a Detomaso not a Detomaso inspired replica.* When he was
contacted be me and several other list members and asked to change his
listing to reflect the true nature of what he was selling he ignored our
requests and got nasty. The State Police took it seriously to investigate
it.The police officer was the one that pointed out the recovered theft Vin
tag. I don't think it's a big deal that the car is a recovered theft but
most peopple buying a recovered theft would want to know because when it is
titled it will have a "branded Title " Which for those of you who don't know
is a salvage title. Many banks won't finance a salvage titled car and like
wise some insurance companies won't underwrite them ,and if you ever do have
a claim the value of a salvage vehicle is going to be considered to be
lower. (that's why CARFAX makes such a big deal about protecting people from
inadvertently purchasing a salvage titled car)  I  also don't agree with
your philosophy that anybody stupid enough to buy it deserves what they get.
I believe that people should be protected from predators and scam artists.
  *I also said I don't know anything about the current seller. I was
referring to the previous seller.*

You also said: "The VIN was stamped on a tag, which was affixed to the top
of the dash.  It was also stamped on a tag which was affixed to the inside
doorjamb.  Finally, it was stamped into the body on top of the brake
booster.  A sheetmetal surround,  ( Mike  Sheet Metal is two words! ;>)
)which had the recommended oil, brake fluid, and antifreeze was laid over
the stamped VIN, with a 'window' in it which allowed the stamped VIN to be
seen.
That's all that this is--that sheetmetal surround.  Nobody is trying to fake
a Pantera VIN--there is no VIN visible in the opening.  It's just a thing,
that's all--and it's not even put in the right location.  There is also a
blank (black) Vignale VIN tag under the 'assigned identification' tag, with
nothing stamped on it--again, no attempt to foist this off as a genuine De
Tomaso. ( again I will restate that I am not commenting on this seller or
his motives but I am refering back to the previous seller who listed the car
a few months ago on E-bay . It was listed as a DETOMASO PANTERA, not A
Detomaso influenced ,  or Pantera Replica. he made brief mention of Long &
Newman , but even that is suposedly untrue.  (aperson on the list that had
first hand knowledge of Long & Newman repplicas said that this car was
definitly not a Long & Newman car ( Maybe he meant it was a replica of a
Long and Newman, in other words a cheap copy of a copy)

I checked all the Vin numbers on my car , and the body tags and no where did
I find a  surround with the place for the Vin # cut out. . My car is a 1973
L and may be different from the model you cited . It has the Vin on the dash
in the corner of the windshield, a partial Vin on a Detomaso tag near the
master cylinder and the full Vin on a plastic tag with additional info ion
the drivers side door jamb. None of them had a cut out section with a plate
over the Vin #. I will be Happy to post the pictures but as you know I can't
post attachments to list posts.
Not everyone has devoted a substantial portion of their life to sports cars
and Panteras. They should not be punished and victimized just because they
don't know that they are being lied to. I suppose you think it's also
alright to pass counterfeit money, Phony Art work, Chinese knock offs of
prescription drugs that do nothing and kill people. We are being inundated
everyday by phony merchandise with fake labels and cheap inferior content.
This also promotes a general disrespect for the rule of law. Ignoring trade
marks, copyrights and licensing agreements. How about when someone
manufactures counterfeit aircraft parts and  your C-130 falls out of the
sky, would you deserve what you got because you were "Too stupid to know the
difference between the real hardware and the phony knock off?
These are off course all just my personal  opinions and do not relect the
opinion of the management. You are entitiled to your oppinion and since you
seem to enjoy sharing it on such a variety of topics I thought I would give
it a try.

Your Friend Boyd. :>)


On Wed, Oct 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM, <MikeLDrew at aol.com> wrote:

>
> In a message dated 10/7/09 7 53 50, boyd411 at gmail.com writes:
>
>
> I don't know if the Detomaso tag displayed is an aftermarket copy or an
> original taken from another car but in either case you can clearly see were
> the vin number location has been cut out.
>
> >>>Boyd, Boyd, Boyd....
>
> The VIN was stamped on a tag, which was affixed to the top of the dash.  It
> was also stamped on a tag which was affixed to the inside doorjamb.
> Finally, it was stamped into the body on top of the brake booster.  A
> sheetmetal surround, which had the recommended oil, brake fluid, and
> antifreeze was laid over the stamped VIN, with a 'window' in it which
> allowed the stamped VIN to be seen.
>
> That's all that this is--that sheetmetal surround.  Nobody is trying to
> fake a Pantera VIN--there is no VIN visible in the opening.  It's just a
> thing, that's all--and it's not even put in the right location.  There is
> also a blank (black) Vignale VIN tag under the 'assigned identification'
> tag, with nothing stamped on it--again, no attempt to foist this off as a
> genuine De Tomaso.
>
>
>  Putting a Detomaso tag on a car
> that was not manufactured by Detomaso is deceptive.
>
> >>>Oh please--nobody is trying to pretend that this is a real Pantera--the
> ad purports that it's a kit car.  And anybody who convinced himself that it
> was a real De Tomaso, deserves what he gets!
>
>
>  The state Police auto
> theft squad officer that i spoke to and who investigated this car said that
> the BLUE tag this car displays is a RECOVERED theft issued by the State of
> California NOT a KIT CAR vin assignment.
>
> >>>Could be?  And what if it was?
>
>
>  I corresponded with the original
> seller and there is no question in my mind that he was trying to pull a
> fast
> one .
>
> >>>Wasn't the original seller in California?  Isn't this current seller in
> Arizona?  Do you believe that this guy, is that guy?  Or was the original
> seller succesful in selling this turd to a guy in Arizona, who is now trying
> to get out from under it?
>
>
>  One of the list members who was familiar with Long and Newman said
> this wasn't even a authentic Long and Newman replica.
>
> >>>Now THAT is true.  This is pure kit-car junk, not L&N which was actually
> a quality piece.  This thing looks like a 3/4 scale Pantera, perhaps on a
> Fiero floorpan?
>
>
>  If you have a Cobra
> kit car or a Ferrari kit car they do not display Ford or AC or Ferrari vin
> tags .
>
> >>>Mine do.  And most of them that I've seen do too.  They don't display
> original NUMBERS, that would be deceptive.  But it's common practice to
> stamp the correct, authentic VIN of the vehicle, on a reproduction of an
> original tag.  I don't know why the owner of this car chose not to do so.
>
>
>  If the Detomaso Vin tag t(with the number removed is an authentic
> Detomaso tag salvaged from a wrecked car it is illegal to remove it and
> place it on another car.
>
> >>>Okay, I'm just laughing now.
>
>
>  It is also fraudulent representation. You are
> certainly entitiled to your opinion and I can't speak for this seller
> because I have not communicated with him but the last seller was
> intentionaly deceptive and a crook.
>
> >>>Probably true....
>
>
>  He evaded questions and gave deceptive
> and evasive answers to questions about the true nature of this abortion on
> wheels.
>
> >>>Now *that* is a highly accurate assessment! :>)
>
> Mike
>
>



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