[DeTomaso] Pantera A/C compressor bracket But Really Water Pumps, Electric or Mechanical Flow Rates
Chris Difani
cdifani at comcast.net
Sat Nov 28 15:59:09 EST 2009
Guys:
One thing I'm not seeing in the conversation, except by inference, is the
fact that we're dealing with a --system-- here. NOT an individual part.
We've got the word that someone was charging along at 150MPH on the
autobahn, and he had a significant cooling problem. Since he also had an
electric water pump, the immediate conclusion has been that the electric
pump was the entire, and --only-- problem!
I don't know about you, but I've worked on my cooling system too much to
look at it as a single part. There's simply too may pieces to a good
system, to lay the failure blame to any one element within it.
Now one other thing, 55GPM, that's a HUGE amount of flow! In comparison, a
full flowing shower head (without the restrictor) has a max flow of 4GPM.
The filler in your bath tub is the same, 4GPM! A full flowing garden hose
is about 6 GPM. A 55 GPM flow can move 3,300 gallons in an hour. That
means, with the typical 20,000 gallon sized swimming pool, that same pump
could EMPTY that 20,000 gallons in 6 hours!
That is a HUGE amount of liquid! A swimming pool's worth of water in 6
hours!
Okay, that's perspective. AND that's a free flowing pump too! Add in all
the angles, bends, changes in pipe to tube to pipe, to radiator, to engine,
and more, every one of those "changes" creates turbulence within the flow,
and creates a restriction to the flow. I've been told that the addition of
one connection, the change from pipe, to rubber hose, to pipe, can create a
2% flow restriction. It's possible to have so many "changes" in a system
that the flow is reduced by half. Theoretically we don't have that
situation in our cars, but the thing to remember is "change is bad" when
you're dealing with hydraulics and flow rates. Or if you need to "change",
that change needs to be as gradual, gentle, and even a transition as
possible.
One other comment that's been made was the suggestion to add another
electric pump to the system, for 110 GPM flow capacity. If I need enough
"pump" to empty my swimming pool in 3 hours, I've got another problem than
the pump! That's the pump equivalent to adding a second carburetor to the
engine, when all you really need to do is release the parking brake!
You need to think about our cooling requirements as a system! And look at
all the pieces within it, then do whatever you can do to minimize flow
problems within the system.
Of course, as always, your mileage may vary... And in this instance, your
GPM may vary too!
Chris
Chris Difani
'73 L #5829 "LITNNG"
The Electric Pantera with a 55 GPM Meziere electric water pump, and really
big pipes!
Sacramento, CA
Email: cdifani at comcast.net
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Thomas Tornblom" <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se>
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 10:57 AM
To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera A/C compressor bracket
> Ken Green skrev:
>> This is intereesting reading:
>>
>> http://www.stewartcomponents.com/tech_tips/Tech_Tips_6.htm
>
> Yes, 100gph appears to be required, so one 55gph pump per head. Seems
> consistent with the comments I've received.
>
> Thomas
>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Sat, 11/28/09, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera A/C compressor bracket
>> To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 9:42 AM
>>
>>
>> Hmm, well Kirby, I think you're going to have to enter the Big Bend Open
>> Road Race this next year in order to test it at ORR speeds for extended
>> periods of time "autobahn style" in order for us to really know.
>>
>> But in seriousness, I think Jack's question is the most relevant. What
>> is rated capacity of a stock mechanical pump being driven by a belt at
>> 6,000 engine RPM. If we knew that number, we could do a side by side
>> comparison of the electric which we know has an advertised capacity of
>> 55 GPM. After that, empirical testing is required.
>>
>> Asa Jay
>>
>> Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
>>
>> & Shelley Marie
>> Spokane, WA
>>
>> 1971 Mach I Mustang [ASA JAY]
>> 1973 Pantera L 5533 [ASASCAT]
>>
>> ******************************
>> http://www.asajay.com
>> http://www.teampanteraracing.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Kirby Schrader wrote:
>>> My 55gpm remote Meziere is working very well, so far.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28 Nov 2009, at 7:33 AM, Thomas Tornblom wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Tomas Gunnarsson skrev:
>>>>
>>>>> If you're talking about Stefan J's pump it was a Meziere AFAIK. I
>>>>> don't know what the rated capacity was.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, it was Stefan, but I also received comments from others that had
>>>> seen cars having cooling problems due to the electric pump they were
>>>> using.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Tomas
>>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Thomas Tornblom" <Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se>
>>>>> To: "Julian Kift" <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>>>>> Cc: <rkmosier at aol.com>; <fnoonan at gmail.com>; "De Tomaso List"
>>>>> <detomaso at realbig.com>; <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; <sobill at aol.com>;
>>>>> <thomas.tornblom at hax.se>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 12:55 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera A/C compressor bracket
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Julian Kift skrev:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it would be good to know/document what brand pump and what went
>>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know people will argue that that there are far fewer electric
>>>>>>> pumps on
>>>>>>> Pantera's out there, but I heard of many a mechanical water pump
>>>>>>> failing
>>>>>>> and that's the first electric.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> It didn´t fail, it just wasn´t up to the task on the autobahn, and I
>>>>>> don´t know what brand/model it was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also have no idea about the other failures I received private mails
>>>>>> for, but that too appears to have been capacity problems. Working
>>>>>> fine
>>>>>> in daily traffic, but insufficient at high speed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a parallel discussion on the PI forum regarding an electric
>>>>>>> water pump and flat firewall. The remote electric pump in that
>>>>>>> application was a) installed in 2000 and still going and b) set up
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> shut off valves and could be changed out on the side of the road if
>>>>>>> necessary. Would you change a mechanical pump at the side of the
>>>>>>> road?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Discussion can be found here;
>>>>>>> http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/511108853/p/1
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 14:43:46 -0800
>>>>>>> From: davel at emspace.com
>>>>>>> To: Thomas.Tornblom at hax.se
>>>>>>> CC: julian_kift at hotmail.com; rkmosier at aol.com; fnoonan at gmail.com;
>>>>>>> detomaso at realbig.com; kenn_green at yahoo.com; sobill at aol.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera A/C compressor bracket
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you happen to know the make & model that failed Thomas?
>>>>>>> dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thomas Tornblom wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julian Kift skrev:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thomas,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why not just install a remote electric water pump?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I´m not convinced about the reliability and capacity of that. I
>>>>>>> received
>>>>>>> some private comments to this effect when there was talk about
>>>>>>> this a
>>>>>>> few weeks ago. A Swedish Pantera using an electric pump without
>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>> in Sweden ran into problems on a trip through Germany and had to
>>>>>>> go back
>>>>>>> to the mechanical pump.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:30:20 +0100
>>>>>>>> From: Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE <mailto:Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE>
>>>>>>>> To: kenn_green at yahoo.com <mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>> CC: RKMosier at aol.com <mailto:RKMosier at aol.com>; SOBill at aol.com
>>>>>>>> <mailto:SOBill at aol.com>; fnoonan at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <mailto:fnoonan at gmail.com>;
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> detomaso at realbig.com <mailto:detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera A/C compressor bracket
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does anyone know where one can get shorter waterpump bearings?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've been thinking about the possibility to drasticly shorten a
>>>>>>>> pump
>>>>>>>> so that one can eliminate the hump.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I tried mailing Edelbrock, but they don't do support over email and
>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> haven't mustered the energy to call them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 27 nov 2009 kl. 22.01 skrev Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:kenn_green at yahoo.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think IPS also sells a mount to move the alternator for a
>>>>>>>>> flatter
>>>>>>>>> fire wall.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/ac%20alt%20bracket.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --- On Fri, 11/27/09, SOBill at aol.com <mailto:SOBill at aol.com>
>>>>>>>>> <SOBill at aol.com> <mailto:SOBill at aol.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: SOBill at aol.com <mailto:SOBill at aol.com> <SOBill at aol.com>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:SOBill at aol.com>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Pantera A/C compressor bracket
>>>>>>>>> To: fnoonan at gmail.com <mailto:fnoonan at gmail.com>,
>>>>>>>>> detomaso at realbig.com <mailto:detomaso at realbig.com>,
>>>>>>>>> RKMosier at aol.com <mailto:RKMosier at aol.com>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Friday, November 27, 2009, 12:35 PM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is this what you're looking for?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/ac%20mount%20bracket.htm_
>>>>>>>>> (http://www.ipsco.org/Pantera%20Parts/ac%20mount%20bracket.htm)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I believe it adapts the rotary pump to the OEM York mounting
>>>>>>>>> bracket.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SOBill Taylor
>>>>>>>>> sobill at aol.com <mailto:sobill at aol.com>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In a message dated 11/27/2009 10:15:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
>>>>>>>>> fnoonan at gmail.com <mailto:fnoonan at gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>> I was wondering if anybody has photos of this bracket, or knows
>>>>>>>>> where I could info on it?
>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Air Conditioning & Heating
>>>>>>>>> Rotary Compressor Upgrade
>>>>>>>>> Sanden Rotary Compressor
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: SOBill at aol.com <mailto:SOBill at aol.com>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 19:57:36 EDT
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Sanden A/Cs
>>>>>>>>> To: detomaso at realbig.com <mailto:detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>>>>>>> From the Pantera Database:
>>>>>>>>> Sanden SD-508 R-12 Rotary AC Compressor is sold by Pantera East,
>>>>>>>>> also sold
>>>>>>>>> is a machined aluminum
>>>>>>>>> adapter bracket to replace a York.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ____________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: NSakulen at aol.com <mailto:NSakulen at aol.com>
>>>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 13 May 2003 22:15:30 EDT
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] a/c
>>>>>>>>> To: RKMosier at aol.com <mailto:RKMosier at aol.com>,
>>>>>>>>> _detomaso at realbig.com_
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (mailto:detomaso at realbig.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> )
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The bracket is from Pantera Performance Center in Colorado. The
>>>>>>>>> Compressor
>>>>>>>>> is a Sanden 508 type. I
>>>>>>>>> got one recommended by an A/C shop I deal with. It's made by ZEXEL
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> Japan P/N 500630-7830.
>>>>>>>>> Distributed by International Components Engineering. I.C.E. P/N
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2521152
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>> The alternator mounts to the
>>>>>>>>> right of the compressor and drives off the inside groove on the
>>>>>>>>> compressor. I have some pictures. I don't
>>>>>>>>> have a web site, but I can send them if you email me.
>>>>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Bing brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>> <http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MFESRP&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFESRP_Local_MapsMenu_Resturants_1x1>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Real life: Thomas Törnblom Email:
>>>>>> Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
>>>>>> Snail mail: Banvallsvägen 14 Phone: +46 18 444 33 21
>>>>>> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Cellular: +46 70 261 1372
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Real life: Thomas Törnblom Email: Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
>>>> Snail mail: Banvallsvägen 14 Phone: +46 18 444 33 21
>>>> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Cellular: +46 70 261 1372
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>
>
> --
> Real life: Thomas Törnblom Email: Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE
> Snail mail: Banvallsvägen 14 Phone: +46 18 444 33 21
> S - 754 40 Uppsala, Sweden Cellular: +46 70 261 1372
>
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