[DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
pantdino at aol.com
pantdino at aol.com
Thu Nov 19 23:28:32 EST 2009
I believe the rating agencies did catch heat in the sense that we now know their ratings are meaningless.
We learned that they compete with each other for business by offering a higher rating for the same bonds than their competitors.
I don't think we'll see any convictions. Everyone is claiming ignorance. Sort of like the Assistant Kommandant of Auschwitz who claimed he didn't know people were being killed there. Only in this case no one cares enough to pursue it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gray Gregory <rgg at gregorycook.com>
To: pantdino at aol.com <pantdino at aol.com>; detomaso at realbig.com <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 4:39 pm
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
The problem with putting people in jail is proving any crime was committed. It's
not against the law to make bad investments with your own money or with other
peoples as a professional money manager. You would have to prove some kind of
fraud and I honestly believe that just like with any bubble most of these guys
just got caught up in the euphoria and thought the good times would go on and
on. I'm sure there were a few that broke the law and we will probably see some
convictions but I think most of them just made really bad mistakes.
What I don't understand about this whole thing is why the rating agencies
haven't caught more heat. IMO they deserve the lion's share of the blame because
they are the ones that made this whole thing possible by giving AAA ratings to
pools of subprime mortgages.
Gray
-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of pantdino at aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 3:57 PM
To: detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
I dont' think the government was in on it at the time, but they sure aren't very
interested in punishing anyone.
Seems like if you are rich enough you are above the law unless you really
distinguish yourself like Bernie Madoff.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
To: pantdino at aol.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:34 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
Jim,
I agree, it's very hard to believe that they did not lie to investors.
Something really sinks about all of this. Makes you think that they all
(government and business) were in on this.
Ken
--- On Thu, 11/19/09, pantdino at aol.com <pantdino at aol.com> wrote:
From: pantdino at aol.com <pantdino at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
To: detomaso at realbig.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 1:22 PM
My feeling is that some people should go to jail.
My understanding is that the grade BBB loans made to people with no proven
income were rebundled as AAA -rated instruments and sold to pension plans and
investors.
In my simple-minded thinking that is fraud and someone should go to jail.
Likewise the CEOs who walked away with hundreds of millions of dollars and
ruined the economy. They knew what would happen. They should do time
Jim Oddie
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
To: detomaso at realbig.com; pantdino at aol.com
Sent: Thu, Nov 19, 2009 1:00 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
Jim,
It's easy to skim a very small percentage of a huge amount of money.
The problem is that the system allowed people to place huge bets, and leave
the game with others holding the bag. I doubt that the people who lost millions
in the last year had any idea that their "investments" were being gambled to
make or insure loans for over priced property bought by people who clearly could
not afford what they were buying. The way it was explained to me is that killer
is that the FED loaned money to lenders and the lenders loaned that money and
exposed all of us to huge losses.
For example, I suspect that the president of Lehman Brothers had a bonus
program that paid him something like $500,000,000 over the past 9 years if he
met certain goals. The risks taken were not part of the formula. He
conveniently ignored warnings that it wasn't a good idea to guarantee loans that
were almost certain to go into default. I don't know if he broke any laws, but
what he did to make huge bucks probably destroyed the financial security of
millions of other Americans. I'm sure the hundreds of millions he made have
helped him to live with what he did.
I suspect that what happened could be explained to the nation (and damn well
should be) but the government is protecting someone. If someone else can
explain what happened better, I'd appreciate it.
Ken
--- On Thu, 11/19/09, pantdino at aol.com <pantdino at aol.com> wrote:
From: pantdino at aol.com <pantdino at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
To: detomaso at realbig.com
Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 12:23 PM
"Down here that means that you
work for what you have"
I'm just curious-- does the "working for what you have" idea apply to the 1000
Goldman Sachs employees who each got $1 Million "bonuses" this year? Does
everyone feel the work they do is so difficult and contributes so much to
society that that kind of money is justified?
My feeling is that just because people have figured out a legal scam to make
them rich does not mean it is OK.
Jim Oddie
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Lewis <lotus0005 at hotmail.com>
To: cuvee at sbcglobal.net; detomaso at realbig.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
Curt, I am in Texas, and I only have one friend/acquaintance who admits to
eing a Democrat. We are solid middle class. Down here that means that you
ork for what you have, and don't want your money going to those who might not
hoose to work as hard.
My comment to my one Dem friend, Carl, is, why do I get hundreds of email
orwards that put down or make fun of the Dems, but so far he has only sent me
ne of the other.
I know the commentator won't let us go too far with this thread, but I am
eally confused about "who" is a Dem - they seem to be a strange crew of
edfellows. How can you be a serious Catholic and be Pro-chose?
And, as to Panteras, I have a question about wheels - 17's & 18's.
--Bill
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:26:53 -0800
From: cuvee at sbcglobal.net
To: detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: [DeTomaso] Very little Pantera content
OK... first let me say I'm not looking for a pissing match! I don't care what
ide of the fence your on.
Just asking a simple question....hows Pres. B.O.s Hope and Change working for
ou?
Working or Not Working?
Now the Pantera content...Hope and Change has cut my Pantera activity down to
lim and none.
Curt
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