[DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?

Ken Green kenn_green at yahoo.com
Fri Nov 13 14:16:34 EST 2009 

Asa,
 
I think you're right, thanks for the pictures.  It's always nice to have more options.
 
Ken

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, asajay at asajay.com <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:


From: asajay at asajay.com <asajay at asajay.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
To: detomaso at realbig.com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 10:57 AM


I did some checking on this myself.  I don't have a Windsor to compare  
to so I don't know the orientation and pattern of the coolant intake  
ports on the front of the timing cover.  On the Cleveland, I can tell  
you the bypass port is above the regular intake port, take a look at  
this photo:
http://www.teampanteraracing.com/index.php?option=com_g2bridge&view=gallery&Itemid=57&g2_itemId=3077

Note where the zip-tie exits the front.  This is above the water port  
the pump you are looking at would attach to.  Therefore it would leave  
the bypass port totally open.  Hence the need for a backing plate.

I went to Meziere's web site and found the block plate:
http://www.meziere.com/ps-841-809-wp123u.aspx

This blocks off everything else except the two coolant intake ports.   
So, if the bolt pattern immediately around the ports is identical  
between the Cleveland and the Windsor, then using a plate like this  
should allow you to use the Stewart pump on the Cleveland, but you  
-must- use the backing plate first.  This will effectively block the  
bypass passage, but if you use the external thermostat arrangement ala  
John, Mike or Kirby , then you should be fine.

I think the Stewart pump looks like a nice alternative, albeit very expensive.

Asa Jay
Sorry to have caused any earlier confusion.



Quoting Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>:

> I just talked to a tech guy at Meziere.  They use the same block   
> mounted pumps on Clevelands and Windsors, but have different backing  
>  plates for a Cleveland, he wasn't sure why.  The main water   
> passages, and bolt holes above and below the water passages, are   
> identical, but I think the Meziere pump no ops the Cleveland   
> thermostat circuit.
>  
> I guess I'm back to thinking that you can use a block mounted   
> electric pump, and probably the stewart pump I have, on a Cleveland,  
>  but you have to do something like the remote thermostat John  
> Taphorn  described.
>  
> Ken
>
> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
> To: detomaso at realbig.com
> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 10:08 AM
>
>
> Windsor pumps do -not- fit the Cleveland.
>
>
>
> Quoting Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>:
>
>> Julian,
>>  
>>     Sorry, the Stewart pump is mechanical not electric, I just   
>> mentioned the electric because the interface would be the same as   
>> the Stewart Pro Series pump.  I've talked to Meziere and I   
>> understood them to say that the same electric pump bolts to a   
>> Cleveland or a Windsor, so I assme the water passages, and the   
>> threaded holes just above and below the passages, are the same on a   
>> Cleveland or a Windsor.
>>  
>>     The general question is if you mount a pump that only matches   
>> the water passages, or connect lines from a remote pump as you have, 
>>   to a Cleveland block, what does that do to the thermostat circuit.  
>>   Looking at page 11 of John Taphorn's article:
>>  
>> http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/Technical/Pantera_Cooling-JTaphorn.pdf
>>  
>> a passage is blocked on the Cleveland water pump.  Is a Windsor   
>> water pump, or an electric pump, or the Stewart pump, just a bolt on 
>>   for John's mod because the passage John blocks is the difference   
>> between a Cleveland and Windsor pump?
>>  
>> Ken
>>
>> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
>> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
>> To: kenn_green at yahoo.com, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>,   
>> "Jack Deryke" <jderyke at aol.com>
>> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 9:45 AM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> By the look of it that's a mechanical pump, not electric? I'd be   
>> surprised if it bolts up to a Cleveland block.
>>  
>> Most electric pumps in use on mid engine cars are remote pumps.   
>> Personally I use the Meziere 55 gpm model, but I'm sure the Stewart   
>> products are equally as good. I am currently 3/4 the way   
>> through converting the GT40 and to keep it simple with t-stat,   
>> by-pass and heater hoses I simply took a std water pump and sweated   
>> the impeller off, removed the shaft, cut down the nose and welded a   
>> plate over the end to create a plenum that functions as per oem   
>> except the water velocity is coming from the remote mounted pump. No 
>>   fitment issues or hose rerouting and it will allow me to have a   
>> completely flat bulkhead now.
>>  
>> Davies, Craig also sell a pump controller that is a variable speed   
>> controller + fan switch effectively acting like a t-stat to regulate 
>>   at your desired set temperature. This combats the only 
>> real negative  of a electric pump, i.e. fixed volume so it's not 
>> running 55gpm at  idle and WOT.
>>  
>> Julian
>>  
>>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:31:27 -0800
>>> From: kenn_green at yahoo.com
>>> To: detomaso at realbig.com; JDeRyke at aol.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
>>>
>>> Jack,
>>>  
>>>     I have a Stewart Pro Series water pump that is shaped more like 
>>>   the electric pumps than a standard Ford pump:
>>>  
>>> http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=STE14000&Category_Code=ProSeriesWaterPumps
>>>  
>>>     I'm guess that it will bolt up, but I'm not sure how the   
>>> thermostat circuit comes into play.  I'm wondering if I do the   
>>> remote thermostat as in John Taphorn's article, is there an issue?
>>>  
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> --- On Thu, 11/12/09, JDeRyke at aol.com <JDeRyke at aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: JDeRyke at aol.com <JDeRyke at aol.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
>>> To: kenn_green at yahoo.com, detomaso at realbig.com
>>> Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 11/12/09 4:40:40 PM, kenn_green at yahoo.com writes:
>>>
>>> > I noticed that the same electric pumps appear to be used on both Windsors
>>> > and Clevelands.  Is the only difference in the stanard pumps related to
>>> > the Cleveland thermostat?
>>> >
>>> The physical shape of the 351C and 351-W pumps are different requiring
>>> different gaskets and bolt lengths. They can not interchange.   
>>> Electric pumps on
>>> the other hand are adapted units and thus CAN fit either block if you go to
>>> the trouble of doing so. Some electric pumps don't even bolt to the engine
>>> but are in-line on a water pipe or attach directly to the radiator, so what
>>> block is used has no influence. I have little experience with   
>>> electric water
>>> pumps beyond having seen two in operation. Both were attached to 351-C
>>> engines and both engines were in a mild state of tune, thus not   
>>> generating much
>>> extra heat. Good luck with this major adaption- J Deryke
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