[DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
Ken Green
kenn_green at yahoo.com
Fri Nov 13 13:43:51 EST 2009
I just talked to a tech guy at Meziere. They use the same block mounted pumps on Clevelands and Windsors, but have different backing plates for a Cleveland, he wasn't sure why. The main water passages, and bolt holes above and below the water passages, are identical, but I think the Meziere pump no ops the Cleveland thermostat circuit.
I guess I'm back to thinking that you can use a block mounted electric pump, and probably the stewart pump I have, on a Cleveland, but you have to do something like the remote thermostat John Taphorn described.
Ken
--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com> wrote:
From: Asa Jay Laughton <asajay at asajay.com>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
To: detomaso at realbig.com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 10:08 AM
Windsor pumps do -not- fit the Cleveland.
Quoting Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>:
> Julian,
>
> Sorry, the Stewart pump is mechanical not electric, I just
> mentioned the electric because the interface would be the same as
> the Stewart Pro Series pump. I've talked to Meziere and I
> understood them to say that the same electric pump bolts to a
> Cleveland or a Windsor, so I assme the water passages, and the
> threaded holes just above and below the passages, are the same on a
> Cleveland or a Windsor.
>
> The general question is if you mount a pump that only matches
> the water passages, or connect lines from a remote pump as you have,
> to a Cleveland block, what does that do to the thermostat circuit.
> Looking at page 11 of John Taphorn's article:
>
> http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/Technical/Pantera_Cooling-JTaphorn.pdf
>
> a passage is blocked on the Cleveland water pump. Is a Windsor
> water pump, or an electric pump, or the Stewart pump, just a bolt on
> for John's mod because the passage John blocks is the difference
> between a Cleveland and Windsor pump?
>
> Ken
>
> --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
> To: kenn_green at yahoo.com, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>,
> "Jack Deryke" <jderyke at aol.com>
> Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 9:45 AM
>
>
>
>
> By the look of it that's a mechanical pump, not electric? I'd be
> surprised if it bolts up to a Cleveland block.
>
> Most electric pumps in use on mid engine cars are remote pumps.
> Personally I use the Meziere 55 gpm model, but I'm sure the Stewart
> products are equally as good. I am currently 3/4 the way
> through converting the GT40 and to keep it simple with t-stat,
> by-pass and heater hoses I simply took a std water pump and sweated
> the impeller off, removed the shaft, cut down the nose and welded a
> plate over the end to create a plenum that functions as per oem
> except the water velocity is coming from the remote mounted pump. No
> fitment issues or hose rerouting and it will allow me to have a
> completely flat bulkhead now.
>
> Davies, Craig also sell a pump controller that is a variable speed
> controller + fan switch effectively acting like a t-stat to regulate
> at your desired set temperature. This combats the only
> real negative of a electric pump, i.e. fixed volume so it's not
> running 55gpm at idle and WOT.
>
> Julian
>
>> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:31:27 -0800
>> From: kenn_green at yahoo.com
>> To: detomaso at realbig.com; JDeRyke at aol.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
>>
>> Jack,
>>
>> I have a Stewart Pro Series water pump that is shaped more like
>> the electric pumps than a standard Ford pump:
>>
>> http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=STE14000&Category_Code=ProSeriesWaterPumps
>>
>> I'm guess that it will bolt up, but I'm not sure how the
>> thermostat circuit comes into play. I'm wondering if I do the
>> remote thermostat as in John Taphorn's article, is there an issue?
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> --- On Thu, 11/12/09, JDeRyke at aol.com <JDeRyke at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: JDeRyke at aol.com <JDeRyke at aol.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
>> To: kenn_green at yahoo.com, detomaso at realbig.com
>> Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 PM
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 11/12/09 4:40:40 PM, kenn_green at yahoo.com writes:
>>
>> > I noticed that the same electric pumps appear to be used on both Windsors
>> > and Clevelands. Is the only difference in the stanard pumps related to
>> > the Cleveland thermostat?
>> >
>> The physical shape of the 351C and 351-W pumps are different requiring
>> different gaskets and bolt lengths. They can not interchange.
>> Electric pumps on
>> the other hand are adapted units and thus CAN fit either block if you go to
>> the trouble of doing so. Some electric pumps don't even bolt to the engine
>> but are in-line on a water pipe or attach directly to the radiator, so what
>> block is used has no influence. I have little experience with electric water
>> pumps beyond having seen two in operation. Both were attached to 351-C
>> engines and both engines were in a mild state of tune, thus not
>> generating much
>> extra heat. Good luck with this major adaption- J Deryke
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