[DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?

John Taphorn jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com
Fri Nov 13 13:41:26 EST 2009


Ken

I believe either Julian's or Kirby's approach are more than satisfactory.  In fact, Kirby is using the modified cooling approach on his GT40. You will need to be creative as to where you plumb the fill tank's drain/output to a low pressure point in your system.  I suppose this could be as simple as installing a fitting just prior to where coolant flows into the eclectic pump.  I assume the pump would be placed between the radiator return and the block. This would be your system's lowest pressure in the system I have described.

JT
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ken Green 
  To: Julian Kift 
  Cc: John Taphorn ; jack DeRyke ; detomaso at realbig.com 
  Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 11:58 AM
  Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?


        Julian,

            Sorry, the Stewart pump is mechanical not electric, I just mentioned the electric because the interface would be the same as the Stewart Pro Series pump.  I've talked to Meziere and I understood them to say that the same electric pump bolts to a Cleveland or a Windsor, so I assme the water passages, and the threaded holes just above and below the passages, are the same on a Cleveland or a Windsor.

            The general question is if you mount a pump that only matches the water passages, or connect lines from a remote pump as you have, to a Cleveland block, what does that do to the thermostat circuit.  Looking at page 11 of John Taphorn's article:

        http://www.spacecitypanteras.com/Technical/Pantera_Cooling-JTaphorn.pdf

        a passage is blocked on the Cleveland water pump.  Is a Windsor water pump, or an electric pump, or the Stewart pump, just a bolt on for John's mod because the passage John blocks is the difference between a Cleveland and Windsor pump?

        Ken

        --- On Fri, 11/13/09, Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com> wrote:


          From: Julian Kift <julian_kift at hotmail.com>
          Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
          To: kenn_green at yahoo.com, "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>, "Jack Deryke" <jderyke at aol.com>
          Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 9:45 AM


          By the look of it that's a mechanical pump, not electric? I'd be surprised if it bolts up to a Cleveland block.
           
          Most electric pumps in use on mid engine cars are remote pumps. Personally I use the Meziere 55 gpm model, but I'm sure the Stewart products are equally as good. I am currently 3/4 the way through converting the GT40 and to keep it simple with t-stat, by-pass and heater hoses I simply took a std water pump and sweated the impeller off, removed the shaft, cut down the nose and welded a plate over the end to create a plenum that functions as per oem except the water velocity is coming from the remote mounted pump. No fitment issues or hose rerouting and it will allow me to have a completely flat bulkhead now.
           
          Davies, Craig also sell a pump controller that is a variable speed controller + fan switch effectively acting like a t-stat to regulate at your desired set temperature. This combats the only real negative of a electric pump, i.e. fixed volume so it's not running 55gpm at idle and WOT.
           
          Julian
           
          > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:31:27 -0800
          > From: kenn_green at yahoo.com
          > To: detomaso at realbig.com; JDeRyke at aol.com
          > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
          > 
          > Jack,
          >  
          >     I have a Stewart Pro Series water pump that is shaped more like the electric pumps than a standard Ford pump:
          >  
          > http://www.stewartcomponents.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=STE14000&Category_Code=ProSeriesWaterPumps
          >  
          >     I'm guess that it will bolt up, but I'm not sure how the thermostat circuit comes into play.  I'm wondering if I do the remote thermostat as in John Taphorn's article, is there an issue?
          >  
          > Ken
          > 
          > --- On Thu, 11/12/09, JDeRyke at aol.com <JDeRyke at aol.com> wrote:
          > 
          > 
          > From: JDeRyke at aol.com <JDeRyke at aol.com>
          > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Windsor Cleveland water pump difference?
          > To: kenn_green at yahoo.com, detomaso at realbig.com
          > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 11:06 PM
          > 
          > 
          > In a message dated 11/12/09 4:40:40 PM, kenn_green at yahoo.com writes:
          > 
          > > I noticed that the same electric pumps appear to be used on both Windsors 
          > > and Clevelands.  Is the only difference in the stanard pumps related to 
          > > the Cleveland thermostat?
          > > 
          > The physical shape of the 351C and 351-W pumps are different requiring 
          > different gaskets and bolt lengths. They can not interchange. Electric pumps on 
          > the other hand are adapted units and thus CAN fit either block if you go to 
          > the trouble of doing so. Some electric pumps don't even bolt to the engine 
          > but are in-line on a water pipe or attach directly to the radiator, so what 
          > block is used has no influence. I have little experience with electric water 
          > pumps beyond having seen two in operation. Both were attached to 351-C 
          > engines and both engines were in a mild state of tune, thus not generating much 
          > extra heat. Good luck with this major adaption- J Deryke
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