[DeTomaso] Chevy in & out of Panteras or Engine Psychology Today
Bill Lewis
lotus0005 at hotmail.com
Wed Jun 17 08:18:31 EDT 2009
Hello to all!! OK, so I was an English major in college. Boyd, do not take this personally - I see this all the time.
But, when writing a fairly long email, one should make paragraphs every four or five lines. It makes it much easier to read.
And, while I am ranting: when you refer to a person, you should say, "who," not "that." Example: "Do you know the man WHO made the first widget?" Not, "Do you know the man THAT made the first widget?" We is "whos" not "thats."
"#@*%& - give a guy a wrench and he don't know good gramma."
---Bill Lewis
> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:03:23 -0400
> From: boyd411 at gmail.com
> To: grayjim at att.net
> CC: kirby.schrader at gmail.com; detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Chevy in & out of Panteras or Engine Psychology Today
>
> I don't have any reason to doubt your statistics about people reverting back
> to a Cleveland after switching out. But I have learned to disregard or at
> least take anecdotal evidence ( statements like 90% of the people who tried
> other power plants switched back to Cleavland's) With out documentable
> evidence to verify statements like that I can't really include them as
> documentary evidence to be used in trying to make a decision about choosing
> or changing a power plant. Since The Cleveland is really the only Ford
> component of any significance I don't think it is accurate to call the
> pantera A Ford. Some of the people you mentioned apparently changed their
> engines several times and with questionable workmanship. I don't think Chris
> Difani has any plans to revert back to a pushrod power plant. And from what
> Goran says he dosen't seem to have any plans to remove his Hemi. Off all
> the collectible cars on the market (based on my research) the Pantera seems
> to be one of the least effected ( in terms of diminished value) by
> mismatched components . It is very rare to even hear about "matching serial
> numbers" or being switched to a car with flares or a spoiler. Other us
> muscle cars are dramatically effected by changes in engine ( even if it's
> changed to the same engine type as originally installed or to a more
> desirable model that is not original. a desirable type. There are some
> Pantera aficionados who are only interested in cars that are completely
> stock, others don't mind upgrades that bring a pantera to a more modern
> configuration and will in fact pay more for a car that has upgrades done,
> and still others will pay more for cars that are "clones' like a 72
> converted to a GTS. If anyone converted a early mustang to a GT 500 shelby "
> Clone" I sincerely doubt people would pay enough more to cover the cost of
> the "Clone" Same thing with a Cloned Super Bee or a Hemi Cuda convertible.
> I believe the money a well done pantera brings at sale will be commensurate
> with the quality of the work done. The fact that allot of the Panteras on
> the market don't bring"top dollar"is a direct result of the poor quality of
> work done.Their are quite a few Panteras that I have seen that look like
> they were worked on by a blind amature mechanic. I have also seen Panteras
> that prove taste is a very subjective matter. The" Pure Gold"
> ( or what ever it was named comes to mind) I think very few people ( with
> the exception of Professional Pantera vendors ever buy a Pantera with the
> plan of spending money on it to restore or customise it with the intent of
> making a profit. I believe that most Pantera aficionados are not suffering
> under the delusion that they will profit from the money they spend or the
> work they have done restoring or customizing their Pantera project. I can
> tell you from 25 years experience he retail automobile business that the
> way to make money one the collector car business is to find someone that has
> spent thousands of dollars on their pet project and the due to circunstaces
> like financial hardship or just tiring of the project are forced to sell and
> a person that has the cash and the knowledge will scoop it up and resell it.
> The same holds true for kit airplanes, kit helicopters, custom
> motorcycles, and boats. That's the only way I know of to make money from
> this hobby. That's why most of us do it for the love of the car or the love
> of making something unique. Look at the number of guys that have worked on
> their project for years with out having driven it. I have an Interest in
> experimental aircraft and helicopters and you see guys all the time that
> don't even have a pilots licence ( they are usually engineers). They have
> worked on building a project for 5 or ten years and when it's finished the
> sell it. ( or they sell it unfinished because it never gets finished. These
> guys normally do the most beautiful work, better work then you could pay
> for.
> Boyd
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
>
> > Kirby,
> >
> > What ever happened to our beloved Mr. Fosset? During the 1980's he hauled
> > my first Pantera to his lair in rural Kansas then sent me a big bill for
> > work I never was able to determine he actually did.
> >
> > Oh, the Fred experience.
> > Jim Gray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Kirby Schrader
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:55 PM
> > To: Charles Engles
> > Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Chevy in & out of Panteras or Engine Psychology
> > Today
> >
> >
> > The car was never actually mine, Chuck.... A guy named Stokey owned it
> > at the time and I was doing some work on it.
> > It is now owned by Dorsey Comeau in Colorado and I hear he's done more
> > work to it.
> >
> > It's a really nice car.... even so. I thought seriously about buying
> > it at the time.... but was kinda' short in the 'green' area putting
> > two kids through university.
> >
> > It's a long, horrid story, but in theory, it was supposed to have been
> > my car back when I ordered a GT5S from a certain individual named Fred
> > Fosset in 1984. Kirk Evans told me more of the background to that saga
> > later on. I was told 9390 was supposed to be 'my car', but it never
> > showed up until long after I gave up. And then Kirk said 9391 was
> > supposed to be mine.
> >
> > It was not to be. 1661 has been mine since 1984. And I found out today
> > it is silver and black again! I might actually drive it later this
> > summer. Last time was March 2002 at TWS....
> >
> > FWIW,
> > Kirby
> >
> >
> >
> > On 16 Jun 2009, at 9:47 PM, Charles Engles wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Kirby,
> > >
> > >
> > > Interesting engine odessey. It is odd that yours and
> > > others seem to gravitate back to the Cleveland karma.
> > >
> > >
> > > Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Schrader"
> > <kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> > > >
> > > To: "List List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:41 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Chevy in & out of Panteras or Engine
> > > Psychology Today
> > >
> > >
> > >> Chuck,
> > >>
> > >> GT5S 9390 went from a Cleveland to an Cleveland stroker to a 545
> > >> Chevy
> > >> and back to a 351 Cleveland stroker.
> > >> The latter, I rebuilt when the car was in my garage back in uhh....
> > >> gee... uhh... must have been around 2000? My memory is getting
> > >> poor....
> > >>
> > >> The story was that the previous owner wanted to go 200mph. Or so I've
> > >> been told by 'those who know'. Why he took the 454 back out and put
> > >> the original engine (which was a botched build job in any case... it
> > >> was ready to self destruct when I took it apart) back in is unknown
> > >> to
> > >> me.
> > >>
> > >> Also, the hatchet job that went into 'modifying' the engine
> > >> compartment for the 454 was atrocious, in my humble opinion. I did a
> > >> LOT of rewiring and repairs at the time.
> > >>
> > >> FWIW,
> > >> Kirby
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 16 Jun 2009, at 7:09 PM, Charles Engles wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Dear Jack,
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> You wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> " Just an added note- if someone does do this swap, remember that
> > >>> virtually
> > >>>> ALL such swaps eventually get reversed and a nice 351C is settled
> > >>>> back where
> > >>>> it belongs. That includes at least 10 of the dozen 454 Chevs that
> > >>>> MIke Cook
> > >>>> did in the '80s, the ZL-1 that used to be in Weldon Brown's Pantera
> > >>>> and a
> > >>>> host of others including Windsors going back to Clevelands."
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Why is that? Given that the Pantera is already a
> > >>> hodge podge of parts and a chimera of a car; given that the Chevy
> > >>> engines have the distributor in a good location for a midengine car
> > >>> plus other intrinsic attributes (ignoring the miscegenation of a
> > >>> Chevy in a Ford car) ; and given that most of these Chevy
> > >>> transplants are done as well as a Cleveland installation----then why
> > >>> the mysterious trend to remove them and revert back to
> > >>> Clevelands? I can understand the benefits of a Chevy powered
> > >>> Pantera. I can't really understand the gravitation *back* to the
> > >>> original 351C configuration after all the cost and effort to make
> > >>> the Chevy change. Do you have an understanding and some sort of
> > >>> psycho-social-engine-ethnic (babble) explanation for this
> > >>> weirdness??
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Life is strange, Chuck Engles
> > >>>
> > >>> It gets stranger when you start swapping
> > >>> engines...........................!!
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
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