[DeTomaso] headlight rings/brakes
Chris Difani
cdifani at pacbell.net
Wed Jun 17 06:57:01 EDT 2009
Mike et al:
Since Mike mentioned my name in this brake thread, I decided to weigh in with my proverbial two cents......
Another thought is that there are other manufacturers of rotors besides Wilwood. Personally I'm using Coleman Racing rotors. I'm not saying that Wilwood rotors are not good rotors. What I am saying is that Coleman makes extremely high quality cast iron rotors. The quality is in their machine work, their castings, their heat and cryogenic treatments. These guys do a tremendous job with their rotors. Everything is done -right-. They have them cast at a very well known domestic foundry, and they're 'seasoned' for 9 to 12 months, just to begin with.
The "seasoning process" is where the castings are left out in the weather, exposed to sunlight, rain, snow, etc. Cast iron is a very interesting metal. You'd think that after the casting cooled to ambient temps, and removed from their mold, that they wouldn't change anymore. Wrong... not with cast iron. This metal will continue to "move" for months after the casting process. Which is why they're "seasoned" if they're being handled correctly. This is also one of the most time consuming steps within the manufacturing process of a precision cast iron device.
However don't mistake the seasoning process for cast iron with what the Italian auto makers did with our steel Pantera bodies. Totally different kettle of metaphorical cats....
Now, back to cast iron.
Even the machining process needs to be specifically tailored to cast iron, rather than simply "ferrous metal". The heat treatment is performed in very accurate, and well maintained tempering ovens or kilns. They do the "cold treatment", otherwise known as cryogenics, which is cooling the rotors down to -300° for a very specific time, in a very specific cooling process. This again requires precision and extreme care. And it's all designed to align the iron molecules' crystalline structure of the entire cast iron piece into an very uniform pattern throughout the entire piece.
The end result is a rotor that will not "move" as it's heated and cooled during it's working cycle. When you have rotors that have not been treated "the right way", you can have situations like Mikey might have on his car.... moving rotor metal (or some kind of defect- that he thinks is now resolved)... not a lot, but 5 or 10 thousandths on a rotor equals "a lot". In our Panteras, at 60MPH, that rotor is doing about 750RPM. And then on the tracks, at oh.. say 150MPH, that rotor is turning at 1850RPM... or so. That's about the same speed as your bench grinder.
Now thinking about that bench grinder. Ever have one with a cheap "stone" on it? You know, the kind when you shut the grinder down, and as it slows down, the entire grinder starts to jump around on the bench from the unbalanced wheel? That's usually a 6" wheel or so, not a 10" or 13" cast iron "wheel".
The entire point of this dissertation is to emphasize how important it is to "buy quality". That's your life that you're messing with, and doing things "on the cheap" isn't a real good way to ensure your continued existence.
So when you make your financial move, make sure that you're getting the best that you can. And then make sure you're truly "getting what you pay for". Plus one of the best ways to guarantee that, is to be sure your vendor is honest, and reputable. Be it retail shop, wholesale "on line", or manufacturer. Also you need to educate yourself on these pesky detail things. Otherwise you are relying on others who might not have your best interests at heart... Not that anyone will willingly "do you wrong", but at the same time, there aren't many out there that will spend the time to take care of your needs, to the degree that you want them taken care of. In fact I'd say that there's only one person that's going to do that... and that's you.
Brakes are tricky... to say the least. You need to think the situation through, learn all that you can, determine what it is that you want, and then do your best to attain that end result. Whatever that may be....
Which I believe is why we call this kind of opportunity a "hobby". I mean who else would spend the time, and money on esoteric devices that we do, for a car that's a faded memory in most people's minds... That's why we fit the definition of "dedicated hobbyist"... otherwise known as a true delusional gearhead. Of which I am a prime example... and if you don't believe me, just ask Mikey... he's always said he'll be happy to sign my commitment papers... just as soon as I finish -his- project...
Chris
Chris Difani
'73 L #5829 "LITNNG"
The Electric Pantera
Sacramento, CA
Email: cdifani at pacbell.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: <MikeLDrew at aol.com>
To: <boyd411 at gmail.com>
Cc: <JDeRyke at aol.com>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] headlight rings/brakes
>
> In a message dated 6/16/09 19 57 53, boyd411 at gmail.com writes:
>
>
>> Mike, That would be perfect for me. I could finally take advantage of my
>> 20/20 hindsight!
>>
>>>>HAHAHAHA!!!
>
>
>> By the way did you get the headlight rings i sent you?
>>
>>>>Got them today, thanks!
>
> Now, I need to figure out exactly what to do with them. The fellow in
> Europe who I thought asked me to get some for him (above and beyond the two
> sets I got and already sent to Stephane Bergeron) now says that he doesn't need
> them.
>
> Doesn't *somebody* in Europe who is on this forum need a good set of chrome
> headlight rings?
>
>
>> And while I have your undivided attention do you know which wilwood brake
>> kit is the appropeiate one for use on upgrading a Pantera with over size
>> wheels? 17" x 9.5 front and 18" x 12" rear . ( I need the one withe the
>> parking brake feature) Do you think the wilwood is the best choice for an
>> upgrade?
>>
>>>>Best for what? Driving on the track? Driving on the street?
> Meeting a specific budget? Those are different challenges.
>
> I wouldn't bother wasting my time and trying to kluge together a homemade
> brake setup yourself. Others have done so with apparent success (I say this
> because Chris Difani's Porsche 911-based Brembo setup looks absolutely
> awesome, but he hasn't actually driven the car yet to verify function) but unless
> you are a professional or have access to your own machine shop (like Chris
> does), you'd be wasting a lot of time and would likely be disappointed with
> the results.
>
> If you are looking for excellent street brakes, it's tough to beat the
> Corvette-based package that Bobby Byars sells. It is relatively cheap,
> appropriate for 17-inch or larger wheels, has an integral parking brake, and has
> the advantage of OEM quality which ensures function even after years and years
> of owner neglect.
>
> I have a middle-of-the-line Wilwood package from Dennis Quella on my car,
> and I love it. He offers an entry-level setup which uses Wilwood calipers
> on the stock cast-iron rotors; this is probably just fine for tooling around
> LonGYland, but would probably suffer if you really started beating on the
> car on a racetrack. My middle-level package worked just fine at some pretty
> elevated speeds on the track, but I'm not pushing them anywhere near their
> potential due to the low coefficient of friction of my stock, crusty tires.
> My system has some really cheap (albeit 1.25 inch thick) rotors too, which
> have warped twice and have longevity issues (although they seem to be fine
> at the moment).
>
> When and if it becomes necessary to replace my rotors I will definitely opt
> for better-quality Wilwood rotors, which are more expensive, for a reason.
>
> Larry Stock's Sierra brake setup, and the Wilwood-based setups of Marino
> Perna, Steve Wilkinson and Gary Hall are all broadly similar to one another;
> all of them are excellent. None, however, incorporate a parking brake.
>
> Geoff Peters in London recently discovered a brake manufacturer in the UK
> that makes a really meaty four-piston caliper which incorporates a built-in
> (as opposed to added-on) parking brake. The caliper is about the same size
> as a large Wilwood caliper, and will clear even 15-inch wheels, and probably
> uses the standard Wilwood-type brake pads. But having the parking brake
> built in is a huge plus.
>
> He's mentioned them to Dennis Quella, who may be intrigued enough to start
> importing them here. The challenge is getting brackets custom-made to
> adapt them to the Pantera upright--hard for you, simple for the vendors!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
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