[DeTomaso] Chevy in & out of Panteras or Engine Psychology Today
boyd casey
boyd411 at gmail.com
Wed Jun 17 01:03:23 EDT 2009
I don't have any reason to doubt your statistics about people reverting back
to a Cleveland after switching out. But I have learned to disregard or at
least take anecdotal evidence ( statements like 90% of the people who tried
other power plants switched back to Cleavland's) With out documentable
evidence to verify statements like that I can't really include them as
documentary evidence to be used in trying to make a decision about choosing
or changing a power plant. Since The Cleveland is really the only Ford
component of any significance I don't think it is accurate to call the
pantera A Ford. Some of the people you mentioned apparently changed their
engines several times and with questionable workmanship. I don't think Chris
Difani has any plans to revert back to a pushrod power plant. And from what
Goran says he dosen't seem to have any plans to remove his Hemi. Off all
the collectible cars on the market (based on my research) the Pantera seems
to be one of the least effected ( in terms of diminished value) by
mismatched components . It is very rare to even hear about "matching serial
numbers" or being switched to a car with flares or a spoiler. Other us
muscle cars are dramatically effected by changes in engine ( even if it's
changed to the same engine type as originally installed or to a more
desirable model that is not original. a desirable type. There are some
Pantera aficionados who are only interested in cars that are completely
stock, others don't mind upgrades that bring a pantera to a more modern
configuration and will in fact pay more for a car that has upgrades done,
and still others will pay more for cars that are "clones' like a 72
converted to a GTS. If anyone converted a early mustang to a GT 500 shelby "
Clone" I sincerely doubt people would pay enough more to cover the cost of
the "Clone" Same thing with a Cloned Super Bee or a Hemi Cuda convertible.
I believe the money a well done pantera brings at sale will be commensurate
with the quality of the work done. The fact that allot of the Panteras on
the market don't bring"top dollar"is a direct result of the poor quality of
work done.Their are quite a few Panteras that I have seen that look like
they were worked on by a blind amature mechanic. I have also seen Panteras
that prove taste is a very subjective matter. The" Pure Gold"
( or what ever it was named comes to mind) I think very few people ( with
the exception of Professional Pantera vendors ever buy a Pantera with the
plan of spending money on it to restore or customise it with the intent of
making a profit. I believe that most Pantera aficionados are not suffering
under the delusion that they will profit from the money they spend or the
work they have done restoring or customizing their Pantera project. I can
tell you from 25 years experience he retail automobile business that the
way to make money one the collector car business is to find someone that has
spent thousands of dollars on their pet project and the due to circunstaces
like financial hardship or just tiring of the project are forced to sell and
a person that has the cash and the knowledge will scoop it up and resell it.
The same holds true for kit airplanes, kit helicopters, custom
motorcycles, and boats. That's the only way I know of to make money from
this hobby. That's why most of us do it for the love of the car or the love
of making something unique. Look at the number of guys that have worked on
their project for years with out having driven it. I have an Interest in
experimental aircraft and helicopters and you see guys all the time that
don't even have a pilots licence ( they are usually engineers). They have
worked on building a project for 5 or ten years and when it's finished the
sell it. ( or they sell it unfinished because it never gets finished. These
guys normally do the most beautiful work, better work then you could pay
for.
Boyd
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Jim Gray <grayjim at att.net> wrote:
> Kirby,
>
> What ever happened to our beloved Mr. Fosset? During the 1980's he hauled
> my first Pantera to his lair in rural Kansas then sent me a big bill for
> work I never was able to determine he actually did.
>
> Oh, the Fred experience.
> Jim Gray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
> On
> Behalf Of Kirby Schrader
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:55 PM
> To: Charles Engles
> Cc: detomaso at realbig.com
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Chevy in & out of Panteras or Engine Psychology
> Today
>
>
> The car was never actually mine, Chuck.... A guy named Stokey owned it
> at the time and I was doing some work on it.
> It is now owned by Dorsey Comeau in Colorado and I hear he's done more
> work to it.
>
> It's a really nice car.... even so. I thought seriously about buying
> it at the time.... but was kinda' short in the 'green' area putting
> two kids through university.
>
> It's a long, horrid story, but in theory, it was supposed to have been
> my car back when I ordered a GT5S from a certain individual named Fred
> Fosset in 1984. Kirk Evans told me more of the background to that saga
> later on. I was told 9390 was supposed to be 'my car', but it never
> showed up until long after I gave up. And then Kirk said 9391 was
> supposed to be mine.
>
> It was not to be. 1661 has been mine since 1984. And I found out today
> it is silver and black again! I might actually drive it later this
> summer. Last time was March 2002 at TWS....
>
> FWIW,
> Kirby
>
>
>
> On 16 Jun 2009, at 9:47 PM, Charles Engles wrote:
>
> > Dear Kirby,
> >
> >
> > Interesting engine odessey. It is odd that yours and
> > others seem to gravitate back to the Cleveland karma.
> >
> >
> > Warmest regards, Chuck Engles
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirby Schrader"
> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com
> > >
> > To: "List List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 9:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Chevy in & out of Panteras or Engine
> > Psychology Today
> >
> >
> >> Chuck,
> >>
> >> GT5S 9390 went from a Cleveland to an Cleveland stroker to a 545
> >> Chevy
> >> and back to a 351 Cleveland stroker.
> >> The latter, I rebuilt when the car was in my garage back in uhh....
> >> gee... uhh... must have been around 2000? My memory is getting
> >> poor....
> >>
> >> The story was that the previous owner wanted to go 200mph. Or so I've
> >> been told by 'those who know'. Why he took the 454 back out and put
> >> the original engine (which was a botched build job in any case... it
> >> was ready to self destruct when I took it apart) back in is unknown
> >> to
> >> me.
> >>
> >> Also, the hatchet job that went into 'modifying' the engine
> >> compartment for the 454 was atrocious, in my humble opinion. I did a
> >> LOT of rewiring and repairs at the time.
> >>
> >> FWIW,
> >> Kirby
> >>
> >>
> >> On 16 Jun 2009, at 7:09 PM, Charles Engles wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Jack,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> " Just an added note- if someone does do this swap, remember that
> >>> virtually
> >>>> ALL such swaps eventually get reversed and a nice 351C is settled
> >>>> back where
> >>>> it belongs. That includes at least 10 of the dozen 454 Chevs that
> >>>> MIke Cook
> >>>> did in the '80s, the ZL-1 that used to be in Weldon Brown's Pantera
> >>>> and a
> >>>> host of others including Windsors going back to Clevelands."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Why is that? Given that the Pantera is already a
> >>> hodge podge of parts and a chimera of a car; given that the Chevy
> >>> engines have the distributor in a good location for a midengine car
> >>> plus other intrinsic attributes (ignoring the miscegenation of a
> >>> Chevy in a Ford car) ; and given that most of these Chevy
> >>> transplants are done as well as a Cleveland installation----then why
> >>> the mysterious trend to remove them and revert back to
> >>> Clevelands? I can understand the benefits of a Chevy powered
> >>> Pantera. I can't really understand the gravitation *back* to the
> >>> original 351C configuration after all the cost and effort to make
> >>> the Chevy change. Do you have an understanding and some sort of
> >>> psycho-social-engine-ethnic (babble) explanation for this
> >>> weirdness??
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Life is strange, Chuck Engles
> >>>
> >>> It gets stranger when you start swapping
> >>> engines...........................!!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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