[DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay

P. Rimov rimov at charter.net
Tue Jul 14 22:22:15 EDT 2009


 One of the tricks used by drag racers in the '60's was to use a fuel line
> coiled in a can right before the carb. Ice would be added to the can to 
> cool
> the fuel.

Didn't Bud Moore or one of the other Ford Boss Trans Am racers use a bucked 
of ice or dry ice around the fuel filler to condense the fuel so they could 
add a couple more quarts of fuel to lessen pit stops for fuel back in the 
early seventies?

Paul
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dan Mixon" <tipo874 at comcast.net>
To: <wkooiman at earthlink.net>; "'Ken Green'" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>; 
<detomaso at realbig.com>; "'Tomas Gunnarsson'" <guson at home.se>
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay


> The Buick Special and Olds F-85 Cutlass used a 215 cu in aluminum V-8 in
> 1961, 1962 and 1963. The engine was available in the Pontiac Tempest in 
> 1961
> and 1962. In 1962 the Olds F-85 4 bbl version could be optioned with a 
> turbo
> charger. The 5 psi boost turbo charged "Jetfire" bumped the horsepower 
> from
> 185 to 215. It used "Turbo Rocket Fluid", a 50/50 mixture of distilled 
> water
> and methyl alcohol, injected during boost to suppress detonation. The 
> turbo
> engine was unreliable from an owner's standpoint. They would forget to add
> the "Turbo Rocket Fluid" and detonate the engine to death or would use
> faucet water and clog the injector nozzles and detonate the engine to 
> death.
> GM sold the rights to the engine to Rover in 1965. The engine was used in
> quite a few British cars and is still used in the Land Rover.
>
> One of the tricks used by drag racers in the '60's was to use a fuel line
> coiled in a can right before the carb. Ice would be added to the can to 
> cool
> the fuel.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] 
> On
> Behalf Of wkooiman at earthlink.net
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 17:32
> To: Ken Green; detomaso at realbig.com; Tomas Gunnarsson
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>
> I've thought the same thing - about getting more airflow by
> cooling/compressing the air in the intake.  For non-turbo/supercharged
> engines, there's probably very little to gain - especially since the water
> is displacing air/fuel.  You might cool the intake passages, but the water
> takes up space too, so it defeats the purpose.  With turbo/super engines,
> however, there's more to gain, so maybe it's worth it.
>
> In addition, I've wondered if water injection helps in the combustion
> process by creating steam - which might expand at a greater rate than air.
>
> I say "might" because I'm far from an expert on gas laws.  Do you treat
> steam as a gas?
>
> Water has unique properties.  It contracts for a while, and then expands,
> and later on contracts again.  I think it's the only liquid that behaves
> that way.  That's why water cracks blocks when it freezes.  I'm wondering 
> if
> it also has unique expansion properties.
>
> I'm pretty sure we discussed this a couple of years ago.  It's probably in
> the realbig archives.
>
> By the way, I didn't mean to imply that I was against intercooling.  It
> obviously makes more power and helps longevity.  I just wanted to point 
> out
> that you can make a lot of HP without intercoolers.
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Jul 14, 2009 4:41 PM
>>To: detomaso at realbig.com, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
>>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>
>>Tomas,
>>
>> I was tying to say that a cooler denser air mass flows easier through
> the intake manifold, so if you cool the air before entering a plenum (like
> with intercoolers) you will get better air flow thorugh the intake 
> manifold,
> and more power.
>>
>>Ken
>>
>>--- On Tue, 7/14/09, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
>>
>>
>>From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
>>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>To: detomaso at realbig.com
>>Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 2:16 PM
>>
>>
>>Not being an expert I think the energy required to vaporize the injected
> fluid gives a certain result, if it results in lower runner or combustion
> chamber temps doesn't matter. Also the temp increase from pressurizing the
> air overshadows all other heating (convection etc) by far.
>>
>>Tomas
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>To: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>Cc: <wkooiman at earthlink.net>; "Myron Zadony" <MZadony at fleetresponse.com>;
> <arkoch at earthlink.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:29 PM
>>Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>
>>
>>> Boyd,
>>>
>>> Basically, yes. If you compress a gas,the temperature rises in the
> absence of some means to conduct heat away from the compressed gas. But 
> that
> doesn't mean you need intercooling. You can run low compression and/or use
> water/alcohol injection. Dick doesn't have intercoolers and appears to be
> making a bunch of HP, so they are not necessary for Dick's engine and use.
>>>
>>> One question I still have is if water/alcohol injection cools the intake
> air flow in the intake manifold or mostly just in the combustion chamber.
> Cooling the air in the combustion chamber would seem to address 
> detonation,
> but cooling the air in the intake manifold would make a denser air charge
> through the intake and make more HP. It would be interesting to see intake
> air temp data for different combinations of intercooling and water/alcohol
> injection.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> --- On Tue, 7/14/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "Myron Zadony" <MZadony at fleetresponse.com>,
> arkoch at earthlink.net, "PANTERA GROUP <(detomaso at realbig.com)>"
> <detomaso at realbig.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 1:12 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> So correct me if I am wrong. In other words what ever means you are 
>>> using
> to
>>> force induction you are supplying a pressurised gas to the combustion
>>> chamber so even if you were not introducing additional heat from a turbo
>>> charger you would be well advised to add some type of supplemental
> cooling (
>>> like an iter cooler ) In the case of a turbo charger you are adding heat
> to
>>> the engine via the process of compressing the fuel air mixture (as in 
>>> the
>>> super charger) plus you are adding substantialy more heat via conduction
> and
>>> convection( the conduction of the heat through the matal parts of the
> turbo
>>> charger connected to the engine and the transfer of the heat vis
> convection
>>> ( the transfer from the heated exhaust gases traveling through the turbo
>>> and the exhaust connections. So in boyh cases your dealing with a
>>> substantial increase in thermal energy ( more in the turbo then the 
>>> super
>>> charger) and since heat is the enemy of engines it would seem like a bad
>>> idea to incorporate either a turbo or a supercharger with out using an
>>> intercooler.
>>> Boyd
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Boyd,
>>>>
>>>> The heat issue with supercharging is not just because turbochargers
>>>> have a hot side. The Ideal Gas Law says that if you compress a gas, the
>>>> temperature goes up, no matter how you compress it. One form of
>>>> the equation is:
>>>>
>>>> Tout = Tin + [Tin(Pout/Pin)^0.283 -1]/efficiency
>>>>
>>>> where temperature is absolute temperature and pressure is absolute
>>>> pressure. Around 8 PSI boost raises the air temp about 100 deg F, no
> matter
>>>> how you compress the air. And compressors are not ideal, and a
> centrifugal
>>>> compressor is about 70 to 80 percent efficient at best, further adding
> to
>>>> the air temp increase.
>>>>
>>>> The compressor side of the T04 turbos are around 70%efficientnt, the
> newer
>>>> GT series are in the 80s. The GT series turbos are water cooled, and I
>>>> assume that helps keep the heat transfer down some. But the problem in 
>>>> a
>>>> lot of this is that there are so many independent variables that any
>>>> analysis may be way off because you miss a few terms that add up to a
> large
>>>> effect. To add more confusion, I came across three sources with three
>>>> different values for the exponent in the equation, 0.283, 0.263, and
> 0.265.
>>>> I guess from sloppy editing?
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On *Tue, 7/14/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>>> To: "Peter Kovacs" <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "Myron Zadony" <MZadony at fleetresponse.com>,
>>>> arkoch at earthlink.net, "PANTERA GROUP <(detomaso at realbig.com)>" <
>>>> detomaso at realbig.com>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 8:24 AM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was always of the opinion that ideally you should have an intercooler
>>>> with
>>>> either a turbo or a supercharger but it was less essential for a super
>>>> charger and almost a necessity ( unless you are operating for very 
>>>> short
>>>> periods of time and don't mind the dramatically reduced engine life)
> with a
>>>> turbocharger. Since the turbine on the turbo charger is run from hot
>>>> exhaust
>>>> gases that are far in excess of the normal operating temp of the engine
> and
>>>> the greater the boost the hotter they get it's akin to an athlete on
>>>> steroids, you're getting more power but the added heat is dramatically
>>>> shortening the effective life span of you engine and it's components
>>>> (especially the turbos themselves) they are in effect gas turbines and
> the
>>>> combination of high temps and very high turbine rpms is a time bomb. I
> know
>>>> when early attempts to turbo charge cars began there were virtually no
>>>> intercoolers and the turbos had a reputation for allot of power for a
>>>> relatively short life expectancy. I don't think you can find a factory
>>>> turbo
>>>> made in the past fifteen years or so that doesn't incorporate an
>>>> intercooler. With a super charger since the boost is derived from the
> crank
>>>> the intercooler is not as essential an item but again due to the higher
>>>> operating temps generated by the forced induction and more energy
> produced
>>>> =
>>>> more heat and the fact that there is still substantial friction in the
>>>> super
>>>> charger and it is sitting on top of a virtual oven an intercooler is
> still
>>>> a
>>>> very good idea although not quite as essential as an intercooler on a
> turbo
>>>> which I believe is really a necessity. The engine in the twin turbo 
>>>> with
>>>> Nitrous Pantera that's on e-bay looks very cool and I bet it does crank
> out
>>>> a boatload of Horse power and is probably okay for the quarter mile, I
> just
>>>> wouldn' be confident in actually driving it under any demanding
> conditions
>>>> (like the silver state) I don't think it wwould stand a chance of
> lasting
>>>> if
>>>> you ran it hard for the entire run. I have never envisioned my Pant era
> (or
>>>> any Pantera for that matter) as a dragster where you run for 8- 12
> seconds
>>>> and the shut it off. My idea is of a high performance road racer built
> for
>>>> racing (or just driving) a long distance with optimum performance for
> the
>>>> entire distance. Where high performance (high revs, high horse power) 
>>>> is
>>>> joined with endurance
>>>>
>>>> ( that's one reason I have never been a big fan of nitrous .It looks
> cool
>>>> in
>>>> a movie where you need a big boost to pull away from your opponent in a
>>>> straight line and I may be wrong ( I'm sure someone will correct me if 
>>>> I
>>>> am) but I was always under the impression that you couldn't just turn 
>>>> on
>>>> the
>>>> nitrous and race around a track, you need to use it for a big kick in
> the
>>>> ass in a straight line, and due to the limited storage capacity it is
> not
>>>> practical for any kind of endurance. My idea of an ideal high output
> engine
>>>> (in a Pantera) is one that can produce the desired horse power and
> provide
>>>> it all day long. These are my opinions and you may or may not agree 
>>>> with
>>>> them. The basis I have for some of these ideas may not actually be 
>>>> based
>>>> on
>>>> factual information, they are the ideas that I have developed from the
>>>> information I have picked up over the years. As you know not all of the
> so
>>>> called "facts" that are disseminated through the list (and elsewhere)
> are
>>>> actually "facts" and there is allot of misinformation and inaccuracies.
> So
>>>> if anyone does not agree with the opinions stated that is of course
> their
>>>> prerogative and I welcome them to share their opinion. If anyone
>>>> identifies
>>>> factual inaccuracies I would implore them to correct he errors for my
>>>> behalf
>>>> as well as the benefit of the other subscribers. We need to separate
> fact
>>>> from fiction in the Pant era world and the only way to accomplish that
> is
>>>> by
>>>> cooperation among those that "know unequivocally " what the facts are
> and
>>>> what you think the facts are. You can ask a fairly straightforward
> question
>>>> that has an answer that is really not subject to interpretation and you
>>>> will
>>>> still get several different answers.
>>>>
>>>> Boyd
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Peter Kovacs
> <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=pet
> er-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>
>>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Neither my 88 5.0 which runs about 11 psi nor my supercharged 73 P Car
>>>> (sniff sniff) when it ran ve intercoolers. Neither of them seemed
>>>> underpowered for street use and although they both would likely benefit
>>>> from
>>>> having one, other items such as water injection, nitrous, traction
>>>> enhancements, EMS enhancements etc, would likely provide more
> significant
>>>> benefit for my needs and seat of the pants feel.
>>>>
>>>> Peter Kovac'
>>>> Property Equity & Mortgage Mgmt
>>>> 209 345-6708
>>>> 209 523-4919 fx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From:
> "wkooiman at earthlink.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wkooima
> n at earthlink.net>"
>>>>
> <wkooiman at earthlink.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wkooima
> n at earthlink.net>
>>>> >
>>>> To:
> arkoch at earthlink.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arkoch@ear
> thlink.net>;
>>>> Myron Zadony
> <MZadony at fleetresponse.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MZad
> ony at fleetresponse.com>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Cc: "PANTERA GROUP
> (detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@
> realbig.com>)"
>>>>
> <detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@
> realbig.com>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 6:27:52 PM
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>>>
>>>> My 1984 Mustang GT had a 2.3L turbo without an intercooler. It was
>>>> essentially a Mustang SVO, but slightly detuned and without the
>>>> intercooler. And, of course, it had a normal GT suspension instead of
> the
>>>> SVO setup.
>>>>
>>>> It was almost as fast as the 5.0L Mustang GT of the same year. I think
> it
>>>> was .2 or .3 slower in the 1/4.
>>>>
>>>> My sister had a 79 Mustang with a 2.3L 4-cylinder. It was a pig. We 
>>>> took
>>>> it out on the ice just so we could experience the tires spinning.
>>>>
>>>> My point? I don't think you need an intercooler, especially if we're
>>>> talking about a 351C.
>>>>
>>>> One last data point. My 93 Mustang Cobra started with a decent 5.0L. It
>>>> was basically a 5.0L with GT40 heads. It was a fun car. After I had the
>>>> car for several years, I decided to try a Vortech supercharger. When I
>>>> added the blower, it felt like I added 200HP (I know - not quite, but
>>>> that's
>>>> what it felt like). No intercooler.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not arguing against an intercooler. Of course, it's going to make
> more
>>>> power with an intercooler. I'm just saying that you can still make more
> HP
>>>> than you can use on the street w/out an intercooler.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: Dick Koch
> <arkoch at earthlink.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arkoch@ea
> rthlink.net>
>>>> >
>>>> >Sent: Jul 13, 2009 7:55 PM
>>>> >To: Myron Zadony
> <MZadony at fleetresponse.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MZad
> ony at fleetresponse.com>
>>>> >
>>>> >Cc: "PANTERA GROUP
> (detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@
> realbig.com>)"
>>>>
> <detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@
> realbig.com>
>>>> >
>>>> >Subject: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>>> >
>>>> >That looks like an old Lance Nist turbo installation. Wilkinson had
>>>> >Lance do some of that work for him as I remember. I know Lance did
>>>> >Wilkinson's personal twin turbo Pantera setup in 1974 or 5. What sold
>>>> >me on my original turbo setup that I had Lance do in 1976 was taking a
>>>> >ride in Wilkinson's Pantera late one night after I had met with Roy
>>>> >Butfoy to discuss fixing my ZF. Many of Lance's original turbo setups
>>>> >did not have any form of intercooling.
>>>> >
>>>> >Myron, I've got to believe the comment you made in reference to the
> twin
>>>> >turbo car, you meant that without some "form of inercooling" you
>>>> >couldn't have a well designed turbo setup. Valid statement and to the
>>>> >point. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
>>>> >
>>>> >With the combined methanol injection and a mall shot of nitrous on the
>>>> >front side of my turbos acting as my "intercooler:" system, the engine
>>>> >runs just fine on pump gas at up to 16psi, with no knock and no
>>>> >overheating, putting out in the neighborhood of 800 hp.
>>>> ><http://www.panteraplace.com/Tech%20Info/KochWWA3.JPG>
>>>> >
>>>> >Dick Koch - Atlanta
>>>> >
>>>> >Myron Zadony wrote:
>>>> >> ________________________________________
>>>> >> From: Danylo Zadony
>>>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:15 PM
>>>> >> To: Myron Zadony
>>>> >> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Eeeekk
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Instant concern would be the lack of cooling for the boosted air
>>>> entering
>>>> the engine. No air to air or liquid to air nothing. That engine design
> is
>>>> not made to be driven at all... Remember the other turbo setup I sent
>>>> along
>>>> with the large intercooler, that's correct. Nothing like having air hot
>>>> enough to make metal glow enter the engine before detonation in the
>>>> cylinder, talk about needing awfully high 100+ octane all the time.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Car is gorgeous but sadly corners were cut on the engine. You can 
>>>> >> see
>>>> he
>>>> has heat problems and had to add direct port injection for cooling
> either
>>>> with co2 or n2o.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Danylo Zadony
>>>> >> Applications Developer
>>>> >> Direct Fax: 216-532-8568
>>>> >> Phone: 216-525-3870 ext. 226
>>>> >> Toll Free: 1-800-338-0619
>>>> >> www.fleetresponse.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: Myron Zadony
>>>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:15 PM
>>>> >> To: Danylo Zadony
>>>> >> Subject: FW: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Check out : Interior, Engine & the paint job. Tato.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ________________________________________
>>>> >> From:
> detomaso-bounces at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=de
> tomaso-bounces at realbig.com>[
>>>>
> detomaso-bounces at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=de
> tomaso-bounces at realbig.com>]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of chris terp
> [thefuture98070 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thefu
> ture98070 at yahoo.com>
>>>> ]
>>>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:28 AM
>>>> >> To: De Tomaso List; boyd casey
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Does anybody know who built the motor, and is it stable? 5000k 
>>>> >> miles?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Chris Terp
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --- On Sun, 7/12/09, boyd casey
> <boyd411 at gmail.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmai
> l.com>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> From: boyd casey
> <boyd411 at gmail.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmai
> l.com>
>>>> >
>>>> >> Subject: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>>> >> To: "De Tomaso List"
> <detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@
> realbig.com>
>>>> >
>>>> >> Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:32 PM
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Pantera-1972-DeTomaso-Pantera-Twi
> n-Turbo-800-hp-VERY-FAST_W0QQitemZ200362113713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Tru
> cks?hash=item2ea6833ab1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C7
> 2%3A317
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Nice engine and suspension and paint, funky intierior
>>>> >> $100k
>>>> >> Boyd
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>
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>>>> >>
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