[DeTomaso] water injection

Tue Jul 14 19:11:50 EDT 2009

Boyd,

I used a system on a carburetor engine, with the nozzle pointed into the carb, (within the
air filter) on a side draft set up.  It worked great, once dialed-in.

I tried 100% water, then various mixes of water and Isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alc)
then I tried methanol, and various mixes with water 0-100% in 5% steps.  50/50 seemed
best.

I eventually bought the stuff in 55 gallon drums from a race supply store.
(You got a card that was punched with each purchase, so you got fresh stuff each
time...)  This was "pure / lab grade / medical grade" methanol or whatever it is correctly
called. 

The rubbing alc would tend to clog the aluminum nozzles but the meth did not.

During racing (like drivers school and track events), I used 1 gal in about 10 gallons of
gas, while light-footing it on the highway on long trips I used 1 gallon per 30-40 gallons
of gas.

It was set up to come on about when rpm was over 1,400 and vacuum was under 5psi,
which is "simplistic", but reasonable effective.  I had an indicator light on the dash
when it was pumping/active.  I could feel the difference.

The side benefit was that the water/steam/meth would keep the combustion chamber CLEAN.
No pre-detonation from deposits was a side benefit.

The engine was maybe 11.5:1 (220 psi max).

The engine lasted 262,452 miles of often hard use.  But then I was extreme in maintenance.
(about 180,000 with the injection system)

Bottom line, it works with non-booster engines.

Chuck

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On Behalf Of boyd
casey
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:55 PM
To: wkooiman at earthlink.net
Cc: Ken Green; Tomas Gunnarsson; detomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay

I was completely ignorant about alcohol / methanol injection in automobiles.
I had read about it's use in airplanes in wwII but knew nothing about it in
cars. Thanks to the wonders of the internet I have just had a crash course
in it's application. From what I have read it can be used in a non-forced
induction engine but the benifits are questionable  in that application. It
is ideally used in conjunction with an intercooler equipped super charger or
turbo charger. There is also considerable debate as to the best place for
the alcohol injection to be introduced to the intake, Kens point about
injecting into the tnter cooler has the added benifit of cooling the fuel
air mixture before it enters the intahe mnifold and that adds the benifit
of  a cooler  fuel air mixture which is denser and allows more fuel and air
into the combustion chamber. More fuel and air = more HP.
Boyd
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 6:31 PM, <wkooiman at earthlink.net> wrote:

> I've thought the same thing - about getting more airflow by
> cooling/compressing the air in the intake.  For non-turbo/supercharged
> engines, there's probably very little to gain - especially since the water
> is displacing air/fuel.  You might cool the intake passages, but the water
> takes up space too, so it defeats the purpose.  With turbo/super engines,
> however, there's more to gain, so maybe it's worth it.
>
> In addition, I've wondered if water injection helps in the combustion
> process by creating steam - which might expand at a greater rate than air.
>
> I say "might" because I'm far from an expert on gas laws.  Do you treat
> steam as a gas?
>
> Water has unique properties.  It contracts for a while, and then expands,
> and later on contracts again.  I think it's the only liquid that behaves
> that way.  That's why water cracks blocks when it freezes.  I'm wondering if
> it also has unique expansion properties.
>
> I'm pretty sure we discussed this a couple of years ago.  It's probably in
> the realbig archives.
>
> By the way, I didn't mean to imply that I was against intercooling.  It
> obviously makes more power and helps longevity.  I just wanted to point out
> that you can make a lot of HP without intercoolers.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
>  >Sent: Jul 14, 2009 4:41 PM
> >To: detomaso at realbig.com, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
> >Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >
> >Tomas,
> >
> >    I was tying to say that a cooler denser air mass flows easier through
> the intake manifold, so if you cool the air before entering a plenum (like
> with intercoolers) you will get better air flow thorugh the intake manifold,
> and more power.
> >
> >Ken
> >
> >--- On Tue, 7/14/09, Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se> wrote:
> >
> >
> >From: Tomas Gunnarsson <guson at home.se>
> >Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >To: detomaso at realbig.com
> >Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 2:16 PM
> >
> >
> >Not being an expert I think the energy required to vaporize the injected
> fluid gives a certain result, if it results in lower runner or combustion
> chamber temps doesn't matter. Also the temp increase from pressurizing the
> air overshadows all other heating (convection etc) by far.
> >
> >Tomas
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> >To: "boyd casey" <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> >Cc: <wkooiman at earthlink.net>; "Myron Zadony" <MZadony at fleetresponse.com>;
> <arkoch at earthlink.net>; <detomaso at realbig.com>
> >Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 10:29 PM
> >Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >
> >
> >> Boyd,
> >>
> >> Basically, yes. If you compress a gas,the temperature rises in the
> absence of some means to conduct heat away from the compressed gas. But that
> doesn't mean you need intercooling. You can run low compression and/or use
> water/alcohol injection. Dick doesn't have intercoolers and appears to be
> making a bunch of HP, so they are not necessary for Dick's engine and use.
> >>
> >> One question I still have is if water/alcohol injection cools the intake
> air flow in the intake manifold or mostly just in the combustion chamber.
> Cooling the air in the combustion chamber would seem to address detonation,
> but cooling the air in the intake manifold would make a denser air charge
> through the intake and make more HP. It would be interesting to see intake
> air temp data for different combinations of intercooling and water/alcohol
> injection.
> >>
> >> Ken
> >>
> >> --- On Tue, 7/14/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >> To: "Ken Green" <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> >> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "Myron Zadony" <MZadony at fleetresponse.com>,
> arkoch at earthlink.net, "PANTERA GROUP <(detomaso at realbig.com)>" <
> detomaso at realbig.com>
> >> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 1:12 PM
> >>
> >>
> >> So correct me if I am wrong. In other words what ever means you are
> using to
> >> force induction you are supplying a pressurised gas to the combustion
> >> chamber so even if you were not introducing additional heat from a turbo
> >> charger you would be well advised to add some type of supplemental
> cooling (
> >> like an iter cooler ) In the case of a turbo charger you are adding heat
> to
> >> the engine via the process of compressing the fuel air mixture (as in
> the
> >> super charger) plus you are adding substantialy more heat via conduction
> and
> >> convection( the conduction of the heat through the matal parts of the
> turbo
> >> charger connected to the engine and the transfer of the heat vis
> convection
> >> ( the transfer from the heated exhaust gases traveling through the turbo
> >> and the exhaust connections. So in boyh cases your dealing with a
> >> substantial increase in thermal energy ( more in the turbo then the
> super
> >> charger) and since heat is the enemy of engines it would seem like a bad
> >> idea to incorporate either a turbo or a supercharger with out using an
> >> intercooler.
> >> Boyd
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Boyd,
> >>>
> >>> The heat issue with supercharging is not just because turbochargers
> >>> have a hot side. The Ideal Gas Law says that if you compress a gas, the
> >>> temperature goes up, no matter how you compress it. One form of
> >>> the equation is:
> >>>
> >>> Tout = Tin + [Tin(Pout/Pin)^0.283 -1]/efficiency
> >>>
> >>> where temperature is absolute temperature and pressure is absolute
> >>> pressure. Around 8 PSI boost raises the air temp about 100 deg F, no
> matter
> >>> how you compress the air. And compressors are not ideal, and a
> centrifugal
> >>> compressor is about 70 to 80 percent efficient at best, further adding
> to
> >>> the air temp increase.
> >>>
> >>> The compressor side of the T04 turbos are around 70%efficientnt, the
> newer
> >>> GT series are in the 80s. The GT series turbos are water cooled, and I
> >>> assume that helps keep the heat transfer down some. But the problem in
> a
> >>> lot of this is that there are so many independent variables that any
> >>> analysis may be way off because you miss a few terms that add up to a
> large
> >>> effect. To add more confusion, I came across three sources with three
> >>> different values for the exponent in the equation, 0.283, 0.263, and
> 0.265.
> >>> I guess from sloppy editing?
> >>>
> >>> Ken
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- On *Tue, 7/14/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>* wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >>> To: "Peter Kovacs" <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>
> >>> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "Myron Zadony" <MZadony at fleetresponse.com
> >,
> >>> arkoch at earthlink.net, "PANTERA GROUP <(detomaso at realbig.com)>" <
> >>> detomaso at realbig.com>
> >>> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 8:24 AM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I was always of the opinion that ideally you should have an intercooler
> >>> with
> >>> either a turbo or a supercharger but it was less essential for a super
> >>> charger and almost a necessity ( unless you are operating for very
> short
> >>> periods of time and don't mind the dramatically reduced engine life)
> with a
> >>> turbocharger. Since the turbine on the turbo charger is run from hot
> >>> exhaust
> >>> gases that are far in excess of the normal operating temp of the engine
> and
> >>> the greater the boost the hotter they get it's akin to an athlete on
> >>> steroids, you're getting more power but the added heat is dramatically
> >>> shortening the effective life span of you engine and it's components
> >>> (especially the turbos themselves) they are in effect gas turbines and
> the
> >>> combination of high temps and very high turbine rpms is a time bomb. I
> know
> >>> when early attempts to turbo charge cars began there were virtually no
> >>> intercoolers and the turbos had a reputation for allot of power for a
> >>> relatively short life expectancy. I don't think you can find a factory
> >>> turbo
> >>> made in the past fifteen years or so that doesn't incorporate an
> >>> intercooler. With a super charger since the boost is derived from the
> crank
> >>> the intercooler is not as essential an item but again due to the higher
> >>> operating temps generated by the forced induction and more energy
> produced
> >>> =
> >>> more heat and the fact that there is still substantial friction in the
> >>> super
> >>> charger and it is sitting on top of a virtual oven an intercooler is
> still
> >>> a
> >>> very good idea although not quite as essential as an intercooler on a
> turbo
> >>> which I believe is really a necessity. The engine in the twin turbo
> with
> >>> Nitrous Pantera that's on e-bay looks very cool and I bet it does crank
> out
> >>> a boatload of Horse power and is probably okay for the quarter mile, I
> just
> >>> wouldn' be confident in actually driving it under any demanding
> conditions
> >>> (like the silver state) I don't think it wwould stand a chance of
> lasting
> >>> if
> >>> you ran it hard for the entire run. I have never envisioned my Pant era
> (or
> >>> any Pantera for that matter) as a dragster where you run for 8- 12
> seconds
> >>> and the shut it off. My idea is of a high performance road racer built
> for
> >>> racing (or just driving) a long distance with optimum performance for
> the
> >>> entire distance. Where high performance (high revs, high horse power)
> is
> >>> joined with endurance
> >>>
> >>> ( that's one reason I have never been a big fan of nitrous .It looks
> cool
> >>> in
> >>> a movie where you need a big boost to pull away from your opponent in a
> >>> straight line and I may be wrong ( I'm sure someone will correct me if
> I
> >>> am) but I was always under the impression that you couldn't just turn
> on
> >>> the
> >>> nitrous and race around a track, you need to use it for a big kick in
> the
> >>> ass in a straight line, and due to the limited storage capacity it is
> not
> >>> practical for any kind of endurance. My idea of an ideal high output
> engine
> >>> (in a Pantera) is one that can produce the desired horse power and
> provide
> >>> it all day long. These are my opinions and you may or may not agree
> with
> >>> them. The basis I have for some of these ideas may not actually be
> based
> >>> on
> >>> factual information, they are the ideas that I have developed from the
> >>> information I have picked up over the years. As you know not all of the
> so
> >>> called "facts" that are disseminated through the list (and elsewhere)
> are
> >>> actually "facts" and there is allot of misinformation and inaccuracies.
> So
> >>> if anyone does not agree with the opinions stated that is of course
> their
> >>> prerogative and I welcome them to share their opinion. If anyone
> >>> identifies
> >>> factual inaccuracies I would implore them to correct he errors for my
> >>> behalf
> >>> as well as the benefit of the other subscribers. We need to separate
> fact
> >>> from fiction in the Pant era world and the only way to accomplish that
> is
> >>> by
> >>> cooperation among those that "know unequivocally " what the facts are
> and
> >>> what you think the facts are. You can ask a fairly straightforward
> question
> >>> that has an answer that is really not subject to interpretation and you
> >>> will
> >>> still get several different answers.
> >>>
> >>> Boyd
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Peter Kovacs <
> peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peter-kovacs@sbcglobal.net>
> >>> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Neither my 88 5.0 which runs about 11 psi nor my supercharged 73 P Car
> >>> (sniff sniff) when it ran ve intercoolers. Neither of them seemed
> >>> underpowered for street use and although they both would likely benefit
> >>> from
> >>> having one, other items such as water injection, nitrous, traction
> >>> enhancements, EMS enhancements etc, would likely provide more
> significant
> >>> benefit for my needs and seat of the pants feel.
> >>>
> >>> Peter Kovac'
> >>> Property Equity & Mortgage Mgmt
> >>> 209 345-6708
> >>> 209 523-4919 fx
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ________________________________
> >>> From: "wkooiman at earthlink.net<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wkooiman@earthlink.net>"
> >>> <wkooiman at earthlink.net<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wkooiman@earthlink.net>
> >>> >
> >>> To: arkoch at earthlink.net<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arkoch@earthlink.net>;
> >>> Myron Zadony <MZadony at fleetresponse.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MZadony@fleetresponse.com>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> Cc: "PANTERA GROUP (detomaso at realbig.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>)"
> >>> <detomaso at realbig.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 6:27:52 PM
> >>>
> >>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >>>
> >>> My 1984 Mustang GT had a 2.3L turbo without an intercooler. It was
> >>> essentially a Mustang SVO, but slightly detuned and without the
> >>> intercooler. And, of course, it had a normal GT suspension instead of
> the
> >>> SVO setup.
> >>>
> >>> It was almost as fast as the 5.0L Mustang GT of the same year. I think
> it
> >>> was .2 or .3 slower in the 1/4.
> >>>
> >>> My sister had a 79 Mustang with a 2.3L 4-cylinder. It was a pig. We
> took
> >>> it out on the ice just so we could experience the tires spinning.
> >>>
> >>> My point? I don't think you need an intercooler, especially if we're
> >>> talking about a 351C.
> >>>
> >>> One last data point. My 93 Mustang Cobra started with a decent 5.0L. It
> >>> was basically a 5.0L with GT40 heads. It was a fun car. After I had the
> >>> car for several years, I decided to try a Vortech supercharger. When I
> >>> added the blower, it felt like I added 200HP (I know - not quite, but
> >>> that's
> >>> what it felt like). No intercooler.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not arguing against an intercooler. Of course, it's going to make
> more
> >>> power with an intercooler. I'm just saying that you can still make more
> HP
> >>> than you can use on the street w/out an intercooler.
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >From: Dick Koch <arkoch at earthlink.net<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arkoch@earthlink.net>
> >>> >
> >>> >Sent: Jul 13, 2009 7:55 PM
> >>> >To: Myron Zadony <MZadony at fleetresponse.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MZadony@fleetresponse.com>
> >>> >
> >>> >Cc: "PANTERA GROUP (detomaso at realbig.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>)"
> >>> <detomaso at realbig.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>
> >>> >
> >>> >Subject: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >>> >
> >>> >That looks like an old Lance Nist turbo installation. Wilkinson had
> >>> >Lance do some of that work for him as I remember. I know Lance did
> >>> >Wilkinson's personal twin turbo Pantera setup in 1974 or 5. What sold
> >>> >me on my original turbo setup that I had Lance do in 1976 was taking a
> >>> >ride in Wilkinson's Pantera late one night after I had met with Roy
> >>> >Butfoy to discuss fixing my ZF. Many of Lance's original turbo setups
> >>> >did not have any form of intercooling.
> >>> >
> >>> >Myron, I've got to believe the comment you made in reference to the
> twin
> >>> >turbo car, you meant that without some "form of inercooling" you
> >>> >couldn't have a well designed turbo setup. Valid statement and to the
> >>> >point. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
> >>> >
> >>> >With the combined methanol injection and a mall shot of nitrous on the
> >>> >front side of my turbos acting as my "intercooler:" system, the engine
> >>> >runs just fine on pump gas at up to 16psi, with no knock and no
> >>> >overheating, putting out in the neighborhood of 800 hp.
> >>> ><http://www.panteraplace.com/Tech%20Info/KochWWA3.JPG>
> >>> >
> >>> >Dick Koch - Atlanta
> >>> >
> >>> >Myron Zadony wrote:
> >>> >> ________________________________________
> >>> >> From: Danylo Zadony
> >>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:15 PM
> >>> >> To: Myron Zadony
> >>> >> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Eeeekk
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Instant concern would be the lack of cooling for the boosted air
> >>> entering
> >>> the engine. No air to air or liquid to air nothing. That engine design
> is
> >>> not made to be driven at all... Remember the other turbo setup I sent
> >>> along
> >>> with the large intercooler, that's correct. Nothing like having air hot
> >>> enough to make metal glow enter the engine before detonation in the
> >>> cylinder, talk about needing awfully high 100+ octane all the time.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Car is gorgeous but sadly corners were cut on the engine. You can
> see
> >>> he
> >>> has heat problems and had to add direct port injection for cooling
> either
> >>> with co2 or n2o.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Danylo Zadony
> >>> >> Applications Developer
> >>> >> Direct Fax: 216-532-8568
> >>> >> Phone: 216-525-3870 ext. 226
> >>> >> Toll Free: 1-800-338-0619
> >>> >> www.fleetresponse.com
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>> >> From: Myron Zadony
> >>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:15 PM
> >>> >> To: Danylo Zadony
> >>> >> Subject: FW: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Check out : Interior, Engine & the paint job. Tato.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> ________________________________________
> >>> >> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso-bounces@realbig.com
> >[
> >>> detomaso-bounces at realbig.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso-bounces@realbig.com
> >]
> >>> On
> >>> Behalf Of chris terp [thefuture98070 at yahoo.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thefuture98070@yahoo.com>
> >>> ]
> >>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:28 AM
> >>> >> To: De Tomaso List; boyd casey
> >>> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Does anybody know who built the motor, and is it stable? 5000k
> miles?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Chris Terp
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --- On Sun, 7/12/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmail.com>>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmail.com>
> >>> >
> >>> >> Subject: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
> >>> >> To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>
> >>> >
> >>> >> Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:32 PM
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Pantera-1972-DeTomaso-Pantera-Twin-Turbo-800-hp
-VERY-FAST_W0QQitemZ200362113713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2ea6833ab1&_trk
sid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A317
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Nice engine and suspension and paint, funky intierior
> >>> >> $100k
> >>> >> Boyd
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>
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> >>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>>
> >>> Archive Search Engine Now Available at
> http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> >>>
> >>> DeTomaso mailing list
> >>> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<
> http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
> >>> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>
> >> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> >>
> >> DeTomaso mailing list
> >> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> >> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >>
> >> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> >>
> >> DeTomaso mailing list
> >> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> >> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> >Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> >
> >DeTomaso mailing list
> >DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> >http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
> >
> >Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
> >
> >DeTomaso mailing list
> >DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> >http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>
> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>
> DeTomaso mailing list
> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com
> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>
_______________________________________________

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