[DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
boyd casey
boyd411 at gmail.com
Tue Jul 14 16:27:03 EDT 2009
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 4:12 PM, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
> So correct me if I am wrong. In other words what ever means you are using
> to force induction you are supplying a pressurised gas to the combustion
> chamber so even if you were not introducing additional heat from a turbo
> charger you would be well advised to add some type of supplemental cooling (
> like an iter cooler ) In the case of a turbo charger you are adding heat to
> the engine via the process of compressing the fuel air mixture (as in the
> super charger) plus you are adding substantialy more heat via conduction and
> convection( the conduction of the heat through the matal parts of the turbo
> charger connected to the engine and the transfer of the heat vis convection
> ( the transfer from the heated exhaust gases traveling through the turbo
> and the exhaust connections. So in boyh cases your dealing with a
> substantial increase in thermal energy ( more in the turbo then the super
> charger) and since heat is the enemy of engines it would seem like a bad
> idea to incorporate either a turbo or a supercharger with out using an
> intercooler.
> Boyd
>
> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Ken Green <kenn_green at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>> Boyd,
>>
>> The heat issue with supercharging is not just because turbochargers
>> have a hot side. The Ideal Gas Law says that if you compress a gas, the
>> temperature goes up, no matter how you compress it. One form of
>> the equation is:
>>
>> Tout = Tin + [Tin(Pout/Pin)^0.283 -1]/efficiency
>>
>> where temperature is absolute temperature and pressure is absolute
>> pressure. Around 8 PSI boost raises the air temp about 100 deg F, no matter
>> how you compress the air. And compressors are not ideal, and a centrifugal
>> compressor is about 70 to 80 percent efficient at best, further adding to
>> the air temp increase.
>>
>> The compressor side of the T04 turbos are around 70%efficientnt, the newer
>> GT series are in the 80s. The GT series turbos are water cooled, and I
>> assume that helps keep the heat transfer down some. But the problem in a
>> lot of this is that there are so many independent variables that any
>> analysis may be way off because you miss a few terms that add up to a large
>> effect. To add more confusion, I came across three sources with three
>> different values for the exponent in the equation, 0.283, 0.263, and 0.265.
>> I guess from sloppy editing?
>>
>> Ken
>>
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 7/14/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>> To: "Peter Kovacs" <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>
>> Cc: wkooiman at earthlink.net, "Myron Zadony" <MZadony at fleetresponse.com>,
>> arkoch at earthlink.net, "PANTERA GROUP <(detomaso at realbig.com)>" <
>> detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 8:24 AM
>>
>>
>> I was always of the opinion that ideally you should have an intercooler
>> with
>> either a turbo or a supercharger but it was less essential for a super
>> charger and almost a necessity ( unless you are operating for very short
>> periods of time and don’t mind the dramatically reduced engine life) with
>> a
>> turbocharger. Since the turbine on the turbo charger is run from hot
>> exhaust
>> gases that are far in excess of the normal operating temp of the engine
>> and
>> the greater the boost the hotter they get it’s akin to an athlete on
>> steroids, you’re getting more power but the added heat is dramatically
>> shortening the effective life span of you engine and it’s components
>> (especially the turbos themselves) they are in effect gas turbines and the
>> combination of high temps and very high turbine rpms is a time bomb. I
>> know
>> when early attempts to turbo charge cars began there were virtually no
>> intercoolers and the turbos had a reputation for allot of power for a
>> relatively short life expectancy. I don't think you can find a factory
>> turbo
>> made in the past fifteen years or so that doesn’t incorporate an
>> intercooler. With a super charger since the boost is derived from the
>> crank
>> the intercooler is not as essential an item but again due to the higher
>> operating temps generated by the forced induction and more energy produced
>> =
>> more heat and the fact that there is still substantial friction in the
>> super
>> charger and it is sitting on top of a virtual oven an intercooler is still
>> a
>> very good idea although not quite as essential as an intercooler on a
>> turbo
>> which I believe is really a necessity. The engine in the twin turbo with
>> Nitrous Pantera that's on e-bay looks very cool and I bet it does crank
>> out
>> a boatload of Horse power and is probably okay for the quarter mile, I
>> just
>> wouldn' be confident in actually driving it under any demanding conditions
>> (like the silver state) I don't think it wwould stand a chance of lasting
>> if
>> you ran it hard for the entire run. I have never envisioned my Pant era
>> (or
>> any Pantera for that matter) as a dragster where you run for 8- 12 seconds
>> and the shut it off. My idea is of a high performance road racer built for
>> racing (or just driving) a long distance with optimum performance for the
>> entire distance. Where high performance (high revs, high horse power) is
>> joined with endurance
>>
>> ( that's one reason I have never been a big fan of nitrous .It looks cool
>> in
>> a movie where you need a big boost to pull away from your opponent in a
>> straight line and I may be wrong ( I'm sure someone will correct me if I
>> am) but I was always under the impression that you couldn't just turn on
>> the
>> nitrous and race around a track, you need to use it for a big kick in the
>> ass in a straight line, and due to the limited storage capacity it is not
>> practical for any kind of endurance. My idea of an ideal high output
>> engine
>> (in a Pantera) is one that can produce the desired horse power and provide
>> it all day long. These are my opinions and you may or may not agree with
>> them. The basis I have for some of these ideas may not actually be based
>> on
>> factual information, they are the ideas that I have developed from the
>> information I have picked up over the years. As you know not all of the so
>> called "facts" that are disseminated through the list (and elsewhere) are
>> actually "facts" and there is allot of misinformation and inaccuracies. So
>> if anyone does not agree with the opinions stated that is of course their
>> prerogative and I welcome them to share their opinion. If anyone
>> identifies
>> factual inaccuracies I would implore them to correct he errors for my
>> behalf
>> as well as the benefit of the other subscribers. We need to separate fact
>> from fiction in the Pant era world and the only way to accomplish that is
>> by
>> cooperation among those that “know unequivocally “ what the facts are and
>> what you think the facts are. You can ask a fairly straightforward
>> question
>> that has an answer that is really not subject to interpretation and you
>> will
>> still get several different answers.
>>
>> Boyd
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Peter Kovacs <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=peter-kovacs@sbcglobal.net>
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>> Neither my 88 5.0 which runs about 11 psi nor my supercharged 73 P Car
>> (sniff sniff) when it ran ve intercoolers. Neither of them seemed
>> underpowered for street use and although they both would likely benefit
>> from
>> having one, other items such as water injection, nitrous, traction
>> enhancements, EMS enhancements etc, would likely provide more significant
>> benefit for my needs and seat of the pants feel.
>>
>> Peter Kovac’
>> Property Equity & Mortgage Mgmt
>> 209 345-6708
>> 209 523-4919 fx
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "wkooiman at earthlink.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wkooiman@earthlink.net>"
>> <wkooiman at earthlink.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wkooiman@earthlink.net>
>> >
>> To: arkoch at earthlink.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arkoch@earthlink.net>;
>> Myron Zadony <MZadony at fleetresponse.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MZadony@fleetresponse.com>
>> >
>>
>> Cc: "PANTERA GROUP (detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>)"
>> <detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>
>> >
>>
>> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 6:27:52 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>
>> My 1984 Mustang GT had a 2.3L turbo without an intercooler. It was
>> essentially a Mustang SVO, but slightly detuned and without the
>> intercooler. And, of course, it had a normal GT suspension instead of the
>> SVO setup.
>>
>> It was almost as fast as the 5.0L Mustang GT of the same year. I think it
>> was .2 or .3 slower in the 1/4.
>>
>> My sister had a 79 Mustang with a 2.3L 4-cylinder. It was a pig. We took
>> it out on the ice just so we could experience the tires spinning.
>>
>> My point? I don't think you need an intercooler, especially if we're
>> talking about a 351C.
>>
>> One last data point. My 93 Mustang Cobra started with a decent 5.0L. It
>> was basically a 5.0L with GT40 heads. It was a fun car. After I had the
>> car for several years, I decided to try a Vortech supercharger. When I
>> added the blower, it felt like I added 200HP (I know - not quite, but
>> that's
>> what it felt like). No intercooler.
>>
>> I'm not arguing against an intercooler. Of course, it's going to make
>> more
>> power with an intercooler. I'm just saying that you can still make more
>> HP
>> than you can use on the street w/out an intercooler.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Dick Koch <arkoch at earthlink.net<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arkoch@earthlink.net>
>> >
>> >Sent: Jul 13, 2009 7:55 PM
>> >To: Myron Zadony <MZadony at fleetresponse.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=MZadony@fleetresponse.com>
>> >
>> >Cc: "PANTERA GROUP (detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>)"
>> <detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>
>> >
>> >Subject: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>> >
>> >That looks like an old Lance Nist turbo installation. Wilkinson had
>> >Lance do some of that work for him as I remember. I know Lance did
>> >Wilkinson's personal twin turbo Pantera setup in 1974 or 5. What sold
>> >me on my original turbo setup that I had Lance do in 1976 was taking a
>> >ride in Wilkinson's Pantera late one night after I had met with Roy
>> >Butfoy to discuss fixing my ZF. Many of Lance's original turbo setups
>> >did not have any form of intercooling.
>> >
>> >Myron, I've got to believe the comment you made in reference to the twin
>> >turbo car, you meant that without some "form of inercooling" you
>> >couldn't have a well designed turbo setup. Valid statement and to the
>> >point. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
>> >
>> >With the combined methanol injection and a mall shot of nitrous on the
>> >front side of my turbos acting as my "intercooler:" system, the engine
>> >runs just fine on pump gas at up to 16psi, with no knock and no
>> >overheating, putting out in the neighborhood of 800 hp.
>> ><http://www.panteraplace.com/Tech%20Info/KochWWA3.JPG>
>> >
>> >Dick Koch - Atlanta
>> >
>> >Myron Zadony wrote:
>> >> ________________________________________
>> >> From: Danylo Zadony
>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:15 PM
>> >> To: Myron Zadony
>> >> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>> >>
>> >> Eeeekk
>> >>
>> >> Instant concern would be the lack of cooling for the boosted air
>> entering
>> the engine. No air to air or liquid to air nothing. That engine design
>> is
>> not made to be driven at all... Remember the other turbo setup I sent
>> along
>> with the large intercooler, that's correct. Nothing like having air hot
>> enough to make metal glow enter the engine before detonation in the
>> cylinder, talk about needing awfully high 100+ octane all the time.
>> >>
>> >> Car is gorgeous but sadly corners were cut on the engine. You can see
>> he
>> has heat problems and had to add direct port injection for cooling either
>> with co2 or n2o.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Danylo Zadony
>> >> Applications Developer
>> >> Direct Fax: 216-532-8568
>> >> Phone: 216-525-3870 ext. 226
>> >> Toll Free: 1-800-338-0619
>> >> www.fleetresponse.com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: Myron Zadony
>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:15 PM
>> >> To: Danylo Zadony
>> >> Subject: FW: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>> >>
>> >> Check out : Interior, Engine & the paint job. Tato.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________________
>> >> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso-bounces@realbig.com>[
>> detomaso-bounces at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso-bounces@realbig.com>]
>> On
>> Behalf Of chris terp [thefuture98070 at yahoo.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=thefuture98070@yahoo.com>
>> ]
>> >> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:28 AM
>> >> To: De Tomaso List; boyd casey
>> >> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>> >>
>> >> Does anybody know who built the motor, and is it stable? 5000k miles?
>> >>
>> >> Chris Terp
>> >>
>> >> --- On Sun, 7/12/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=boyd411@gmail.com>
>> >
>> >> Subject: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>> >> To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=detomaso@realbig.com>
>> >
>> >> Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:32 PM
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Pantera-1972-DeTomaso-Pantera-Twin-Turbo-800-hp-VERY-FAST_W0QQitemZ200362113713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2ea6833ab1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A317
>> >>
>> >> Nice engine and suspension and paint, funky intierior
>> >> $100k
>> >> Boyd
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>
>> >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >>
>> >> Archive Search Engine Now Available at
>> http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>> >>
>> >> DeTomaso mailing list
>> >> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
>> >> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>
>> >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >>
>> >> Archive Search Engine Now Available at
>> http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>> >>
>> >> DeTomaso mailing list
>> >> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
>> >> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >>
>> >> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >>
>> >> Archive Search Engine Now Available at
>> http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>> >>
>> >> DeTomaso mailing list
>> >> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
>> >> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> >>
>> >>
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >
>> >Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>> >
>> >Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>> >
>> >DeTomaso mailing list
>> >DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
>> >http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
>> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
>> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Detomaso Forum Managed by POCA
>>
>> Archive Search Engine Now Available at http://www.realbig.com/detomaso/
>>
>> DeTomaso mailing list
>> DeTomaso at list.realbig.com<http://us.mc308.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=DeTomaso@list.realbig.com>
>> http://list.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/detomaso
>>
>>
>
More information about the DeTomaso
mailing list