[DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay

Tue Jul 14 11:24:12 EDT 2009

I was always of the opinion that ideally you should have an intercooler with
either a turbo or a supercharger but it was less essential for a super
charger and almost a necessity ( unless you are operating for very short
periods of time and don’t mind the dramatically reduced engine life) with a
turbocharger. Since the turbine on the turbo charger is run from hot exhaust
gases that are far in excess of the normal operating temp of the engine and
the greater the boost the hotter they get it’s akin to an athlete on
steroids, you’re getting more power but the added heat is dramatically
shortening the effective life span of you engine and it’s components
(especially the turbos themselves) they are in effect gas turbines and the
combination of high temps and very high turbine rpms is a time bomb. I know
when early attempts to turbo charge cars began there were virtually no
intercoolers and the turbos had a reputation for allot of power for a
relatively short life expectancy. I don't think you can find a factory turbo
made in the past fifteen years or so that doesn’t incorporate an
intercooler. With a super charger since the boost is derived from the crank
the intercooler is not as essential an item but again due to the higher
operating temps generated by the forced induction and more energy produced =
more heat and the fact that there is still substantial friction in the super
charger and it is sitting on top of a virtual oven an intercooler is still a
very good idea although not quite as essential as an intercooler on a turbo
which I believe is really a necessity. The engine in the twin turbo with
Nitrous Pantera that's on e-bay looks very cool and I bet it does crank out
a boatload of Horse power and is probably okay for the quarter mile, I just
wouldn' be confident in actually driving it under any demanding conditions
(like the silver state) I don't think it wwould stand a chance of lasting if
you ran it hard for the entire run. I have never envisioned my Pant era (or
any Pantera for that matter) as a dragster where you run for 8- 12 seconds
and the shut it off. My idea is of a high performance road racer built for
racing (or just driving) a long distance with optimum performance for the
entire distance. Where high performance (high revs, high horse power) is
joined with endurance

( that's one reason I have never been a big fan of nitrous .It looks cool in
a movie where you need a big boost to pull away from your opponent in a
straight line and  I may be wrong ( I'm sure someone will correct me if I
am) but I was always under the impression that you couldn't just turn on the
nitrous and race around a track, you need to use it for a big kick in the
ass in a straight line, and due to the limited storage capacity it is not
practical for any kind of endurance. My idea of an ideal high output engine
(in a Pantera) is one that can produce the desired horse power and provide
it all day long. These are my opinions and you may or may not agree with
them.  The basis I have for some of these ideas may not actually be based on
factual information, they are   the ideas that I have developed from the
information I have picked up over the years. As you know not all of the so
called "facts" that are disseminated through the list (and elsewhere) are
actually "facts" and there is allot of misinformation and inaccuracies. So
if anyone does not agree with the opinions stated that is of course their
prerogative and I welcome them to share their opinion.  If anyone identifies
factual inaccuracies I would implore them to correct he errors for my behalf
as well as the benefit of the other subscribers.  We need to separate fact
from fiction in the Pant era world and the only way to accomplish that is by
cooperation  among those that “know unequivocally “ what the facts are and
what you think the facts are. You can ask a fairly straightforward question
that has an answer that is really not subject to interpretation and you will
still get several different answers.

 Boyd

On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 1:59 AM, Peter Kovacs <peter-kovacs at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

Neither my 88 5.0 which runs about 11 psi nor my supercharged  73 P Car
(sniff sniff) when it ran ve intercoolers. Neither of them seemed
underpowered for street use and although they both would likely benefit from
having one, other items such as water injection, nitrous, traction
enhancements, EMS enhancements etc, would likely provide more significant
benefit for my needs and seat of the pants feel.

Peter Kovac’
Property Equity & Mortgage Mgmt
209 345-6708
209 523-4919 fx

________________________________
From: "wkooiman at earthlink.net" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>
To: arkoch at earthlink.net; Myron Zadony <MZadony at fleetresponse.com>

Cc: "PANTERA GROUP (detomaso at realbig.com)" <detomaso at realbig.com>

Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 6:27:52 PM

Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay

My 1984 Mustang GT had a 2.3L turbo without an intercooler.  It was
essentially a Mustang SVO, but slightly detuned and without the
intercooler.  And, of course, it had a normal GT suspension instead of the
SVO setup.

It was almost as fast as the 5.0L Mustang GT of the same year.  I think it
was .2 or .3 slower in the 1/4.

My sister had a 79 Mustang with a 2.3L 4-cylinder.  It was a pig.  We took
it out on the ice just so we could experience the tires spinning.

My point?  I don't think you need an intercooler, especially if we're
talking about a 351C.

One last data point.  My 93 Mustang Cobra started with a decent 5.0L.  It
was basically a 5.0L with GT40 heads.  It was a fun car.  After I had the
car for several years, I decided to try a Vortech supercharger.  When I
added the blower, it felt like I added 200HP (I know - not quite, but that's
what it felt like).  No intercooler.

I'm not arguing against an intercooler.  Of course, it's going to make more
power with an intercooler.  I'm just saying that you can still make more HP
than you can use on the street w/out an intercooler.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Dick Koch <arkoch at earthlink.net>
>Sent: Jul 13, 2009 7:55 PM
>To: Myron Zadony <MZadony at fleetresponse.com>
>Cc: "PANTERA GROUP (detomaso at realbig.com)" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>Subject: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>
>That looks like an old  Lance Nist turbo installation.  Wilkinson had
>Lance do some of that work for him as I remember.  I know Lance did
>Wilkinson's  personal twin turbo Pantera setup in 1974 or 5.  What sold
>me on my original turbo setup that I had Lance do in 1976 was taking a
>ride in Wilkinson's Pantera late one night after I had met with Roy
>Butfoy to discuss fixing my ZF.  Many of Lance's original turbo setups
>did not have any form of intercooling.
>
>Myron, I've got to believe the comment you made in reference to the twin
>turbo car, you meant that without some "form of inercooling"  you
>couldn't have a well designed turbo setup.  Valid statement and to the
>point.  However, there is more than one way to skin a cat.
>
>With the combined methanol injection and a mall shot of nitrous on the
>front side of my turbos acting as my "intercooler:" system, the engine
>runs just fine on pump gas at up to 16psi, with no knock and no
>overheating, putting out in the neighborhood of 800 hp.
><http://www.panteraplace.com/Tech%20Info/KochWWA3.JPG>
>
>Dick Koch - Atlanta
>
>Myron Zadony wrote:
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Danylo Zadony
>> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 2:15 PM
>> To: Myron Zadony
>> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>
>> Eeeekk
>>
>> Instant concern would be the lack of cooling for the boosted air entering
the engine.  No air to air or liquid to air nothing.  That engine design is
not made to be driven at all...  Remember the other turbo setup I sent along
with the large intercooler, that's correct.  Nothing like having air hot
enough to make metal glow enter the engine before detonation in the
cylinder, talk about needing awfully high 100+ octane all the time.
>>
>> Car is gorgeous but sadly corners were cut on the engine.  You can see he
has heat problems and had to add direct port injection for cooling either
with co2 or n2o.
>>
>>
>>
>> Danylo Zadony
>> Applications Developer
>> Direct Fax: 216-532-8568
>> Phone: 216-525-3870 ext. 226
>> Toll Free: 1-800-338-0619
>> www.fleetresponse.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Myron Zadony
>> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:15 PM
>> To: Danylo Zadony
>> Subject: FW: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>
>> Check out :  Interior, Engine & the paint job.  Tato.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of chris terp [thefuture98070 at yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:28 AM
>> To: De Tomaso List; boyd casey
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>>
>> Does anybody know who built the motor, and is it stable?  5000k miles?
>>
>> Chris Terp
>>
>> --- On Sun, 7/12/09, boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: boyd casey <boyd411 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [DeTomaso] twin turbo pantera on ebay
>> To: "De Tomaso List" <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Date: Sunday, July 12, 2009, 4:32 PM
>>
>>
>>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Pantera-1972-DeTomaso-Pantera-Twin-Turbo-800-hp-VERY-FAST_W0QQitemZ200362113713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2ea6833ab1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A317
>>
>> Nice engine and suspension and paint, funky intierior
>> $100k
>> Boyd
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