[DeTomaso] External Oil Line
Asa Jay Laughton
asajay at asajay.com
Sun Jan 4 00:14:12 EST 2009
It also provides a convenient place to plumb in an external oil accumulator.
Asa Jay
Asa Jay Laughton, MSgt, USAFR, Retired
& Shelley Marie
Spokane, WA
1971 Mach I Mustang [ASA JAY]
1973 Pantera L 5533 [ASASCAT]
******************************
http://www.asajay.com
http://www.351c.info
Rich wrote:
> I happen to believe in the external line. It just makes sense to me.
> If you decide to install one, before you build and tank your engine, you
> need to enlarge the hole in the block underneath the oil sender. It is a
> small hole that normally feeds pressure to only the sender. I drilled it
> larger to allow the rear line to deliver more capacity.
> Rich
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Taphorn" <jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com>
> To: "Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>; "'Thomas Tornblom'"
> <Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE>; "'Kirby Schrader'" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> Cc: <deTomaso at realbig.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:07 AM
> Subject: [DeTomaso] External Oil Line
>
>
>
>> Will, Thanks for the link
>>
>> This is an interesting thread addressing an issue that has been debated
>> frequently on this Forum. My personal test running multiple gauges with
>> Dan
>> Mixon as a witness reinforced the benefit in our eyes of an external line.
>> This individual takes the testing to another level of scrutiny. While I am
>> confident these tests will not convince everyone, and perhaps they
>> shouldn't
>> as they have not been repeated on multiple engines, they do serve to
>> contribute actual data to the discussion previously championed by many
>> with
>> a gut hypothesis.
>>
>> To keep the search simple, I copied a piece of the discussion below.
>>
>> "I just give the facts and try to avoid the big debate.
>>
>> Greg Gach took a Clevo and put 5 oil pressure gauges on it. One near oil
>> pump above filter, one in rear top of block and the other 3 were between
>> the
>> lifter bores drilled into the oil galley.
>>
>> He ran the engine hard and watched the center oil pressure gauges drop
>> compared to the end ones. He then added an external oil line and ran it
>> hard
>> again. He saw the oil pressure equalize on all 5 gauges.
>>
>> He now runs an external oil line on EVERY Clevo he touches whether it be
>> street or strip."
>>
>> And another -
>> "I talked to Greg, the guy that hooked up 5 oil pressure gauges.
>> Yes he had them all plumbed separately inside the car. Yes he could see as
>> well as a passenger just what each gauge was reading at various rpm's.
>> He did this because he was always loosing no.3 and.7 cylinders when he
>> revved OVER 8000rpm. I asked exactly where did you hook the gauges. He
>> showed me a bare block and pointed it out. Very simple. He put 3 gauges on
>> the right side (passengers side) lifter oil gallies, one in the center of
>> the left side galley and one in the normal location on the top of the
>> block.
>> I'll explain more precisely. If you look at the block where the lifters
>> bores are, you can see a space between each set of lifter bores. He
>> drilled
>> and tapped each space on the right side and the center space on the left
>> side. The gauges were reading the pressure present at the lifter galley
>> oil
>> feed in the block.
>> At high rpm while drag racing the center two gauges would drop oil
>> pressure.
>> The higher he revved past 8000 the more pressure would fall. The other 3
>> gauges were OK, just the center two which is the exact center of both left
>> and right lifter galleries.
>> He then plumbed the external line. He drilled and tapped the "normal" oil
>> pressure hole out to 3/8" pipe size. He ran a steel 3/8" brake line from
>> the
>> block fitting near the oil filter to the enlarged hole in the top of the
>> block at the rear of the manifold.
>> He went drag racing and ALL GAUGES WERE EQUALIZED ! Including the center
>> two. He doesn't loose 3 and 7 any more. "
>>
>> JT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>
>> To: "'Thomas Tornblom'" <Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE>; "'Kirby Schrader'"
>> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
>> Cc: <deTomaso at realbig.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>> Windsor??
>>
>>
>>
>>> My theory is it would save the engines that bend pushrods.
>>>
>>> There's a pretty good thread on www.351cleveland.net that discusses
>>> oiling.
>>> The title is 13.5GPM. Most of these guys are drag racers, so they're
>>> actually turning 7K or 8K RPM on a regular basis.
>>>
>>> One of the guys, Wydendorf, even sells a kit to bush the lifter bores.
>>>
>>> If you do a search on www.351cleveland.net, you'll find other threads on
>>> oiling. They bring up some ideas that we don't normally discuss. For
>>> example, they claim it's important how the front cam bearing is
>>> installed.
>>> If you install it by the book, it bleeds too much pressure. They say it
>>> should be as far forward as possible.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Thomas.Tornblom at Sun.COM [mailto:Thomas.Tornblom at Sun.COM] On Behalf
>>> Of
>>> Thomas Tornblom
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 4:04 AM
>>> To: Kirby Schrader
>>> Cc: Will Kooiman; deTomaso at realbig.com
>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>>> Windsor??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 3 jan 2009 kl. 08.22 skrev Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Will,
>>>>
>>>> I ran 1, 2, 3 on my 377 stroker for years. I have never been convinced
>>>> that #4 is a necessary mod.
>>>>
>>> This was discussed some time ago and I think most engines waste the
>>> front bearings, which goes against the theory of the external feed line.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Never needed it on mine, at least. Wound it to 7200rpm a lot....
>>>>
>>>> #5 is an option that I would do only if required.
>>>>
>>>> Kirby
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2 Jan 2009, at 11:40 PM, Will Kooiman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Why use a 351C? Mostly so you don't have to play games to make
>>>>> things fit,
>>>>> but also... why not?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you've been misinformed about the 351W being a much better
>>>>> engine.
>>>>> The 351W gets more press, but I sure wouldn't call it better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Put it this way, if you take a stock 351W and do a basic performance
>>>>> rebuild, and then you do the same thing to a 351C, the 351C is
>>>>> probably
>>>>> going to be faster - even for a street build. If you put aluminum
>>>>> heads on
>>>>> the 351W, do the same thing with the 351C. The 351C is still going
>>>>> to be
>>>>> faster.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're looking for high HP - 408W with big Windsor aluminum heads
>>>>> vs.
>>>>> 408C with Kaase heads & intake... the 408C is going to stomp the
>>>>> 408W.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't believe what you read about the ports being too large. I
>>>>> drove my car
>>>>> for 3-4 years with a stock 351C, open chamber heads, and a Torker
>>>>> intake.
>>>>> It ran great - slightly faster than a standard C6 Corvette. I had
>>>>> to let up
>>>>> to keep from running into him. And, that's with big port heads, and
>>>>> the
>>>>> stock crappy camshaft.
>>>>>
>>>>> One note, though. Whatever engine you use, make sure you address
>>>>> oiling. A
>>>>> Pantera can easily pull enough G's to starve the pickup. What
>>>>> happens next
>>>>> is usually bent pushrods, if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, you
>>>>> spin a
>>>>> bearing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everyone has their own list. My list is:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Pantera specific oil pan (non negotiable - if you run the car
>>>>> hard).
>>>>> 2. Moroso oil restrictors.
>>>>> 3. Solid lifters (can't collapse if oil pressure drops)
>>>>> 4. Run an external line from the pressure port to the back of the
>>>>> block.
>>>>> 5. Install bushings in the lifter bores.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've done 1-3.
>>>>>
>>>>> The engine I'm working on right now will have #4.
>>>>>
>>>>> I considered #5, but I decided against it. If it were still apart,
>>>>> I'd do
>>>>> the bushings, though. I spun the oil pump with the intake off. It's
>>>>> amazing how much oil escapes into the lifter valley - and I wasn't
>>>>> even
>>>>> turning the engine over.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good Luck,
>>>>>
>>>>> Will.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
>>>>> ] On
>>>>> Behalf Of P. Rimov
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:33 PM
>>>>> To: deTomaso at realbig.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>>>>> Windsor??
>>>>>
>>>>> With your background racing Chevrolets perhaps you should use
>>>>> neither the
>>>>> 351 Windsor or the 351 Cleveland but the latest and greatest
>>>>> Chevrolet
>>>>> offering. Dare to be different and be ridiculed, teased, criticized
>>>>> and yet
>>>>> admired. I don't believe the big ported heads are exactly worthless
>>>>> on the
>>>>> street but Chevrolet affectionatos tend to be unaccustomed to the
>>>>> power
>>>>> surge that is realized with Cleveland heads at higher rpms.
>>>>> Additionally,
>>>>> there is a world of difference in the feel of a Windsor powered
>>>>> Pantera and
>>>>> a Cleveland powered Pantera. Both have their advantages and
>>>>> disadvantages
>>>>> that numbers alone can not exemplify.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:39 AM
>>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>>>>> Windsor??
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok you ford guys, why would I want to put a 351 Cleveland back in my
>>>>>> Pantera, instead of using a much better engine, the 351 Windsor??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have used and raced Chevrolets all my life until I purchased my
>>>>>> 73L. It
>>>>>>
>>>>>> of course came with a 351 Cleveland with the big ported heads
>>>>>> (which are
>>>>>> useless on the street). I had a custom built 351 Cleveland with
>>>>>> Aluminum
>>>>>> Heads and complete roller motor built, and It is ready to go into
>>>>>> the car
>>>>>> now. I happened to be at a Barnes & Noble and purchased a book on
>>>>>> Windsor
>>>>>>
>>>>>> engines, it seems to me that would have been a better way to go.
>>>>>> Any
>>>>>> input would be greatly appreciated as I know nothing about ford
>>>>>> engines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I hope I didn't open a can of worms, but I think we could all
>>>>>> benefit from
>>>>>>
>>>>>> this discussion. Thanks.
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