[DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351 Windsor??

Sat Jan 3 14:25:42 EST 2009

Goran,

Regarding Dry Sump:

    I've talked to several piston and ring tech guys, and they all say that running even a little crankcase vacuum makes the rings seal better and gives you some extra HP, like 20 to 30.  It also helps me because I want to hang turbos off the heads, so they end up pretty low, and I need some form of suction to help draw the oil from them.  I talked to Joe Fontana about it and he thinks it's a lot better because it takes the pump load away from the distrubutor gear, and in my case, with a crank trigger, I no longer need a distributer.

Ken

--- On Sat, 1/3/09, Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se> wrote:

From: Göran Malmberg <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351 Windsor??
To: "LS" <lashdeep at yahoo.com>, "Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>, deTomaso at realbig.com
Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 2:10 AM

The biggest problem with dry sump is getting a good oilpan. As fare as I
know there is no dry sump pans made for the Pantera. There are pans
for the engines, but these are sort of "universal" and specific type
racing
design. For example a drag race oilpan is no good choice for a cornering
car. And the same goes for a low profile road race pan, that dosent use
the avilable space in a Pantera application. Making ones own pan is
difficult, and from own experience I know that every change in design
affect oil drainback within the pan.
In general, ALL space in ground clearance should be used to protect
the oil from beeing succked up by the crank.and a full length
"oil throw out" along the side of the crank.a full length right hand
side
kickout is to prefere. But this interfere with the bolting flange to the
engine and bolt tube in the pan is a good choice.
Okay, much of the same goes for a wet system, but the thing is that the
whole point with a dry sump is to get an advantage over a vet sump.
Other wise it is not worth doing, and it will only look meaningsless to
someone who understand dry sumps.
Goran

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "LS" <lashdeep at yahoo.com>
To: "Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>;
<deTomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351 Windsor??

Will, great post about oiling.

What is everyone running for a dry sump conversion? Is there a preferred off 
the shelf racing kit?

Thanks,
LS

----- Original Message ----
From: Will Kooiman <wkooiman at earthlink.net>
To: deTomaso at realbig.com
Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:40:10 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351 Windsor??

Why use a 351C? Mostly so you don't have to play games to make things fit,
but also... why not?

I think you've been misinformed about the 351W being a much better engine.
The 351W gets more press, but I sure wouldn't call it better.

Put it this way, if you take a stock 351W and do a basic performance
rebuild, and then you do the same thing to a 351C, the 351C is probably
going to be faster - even for a street build. If you put aluminum heads on
the 351W, do the same thing with the 351C. The 351C is still going to be
faster.

If you're looking for high HP - 408W with big Windsor aluminum heads vs.
408C with Kaase heads & intake... the 408C is going to stomp the 408W.

Don't believe what you read about the ports being too large. I drove my car
for 3-4 years with a stock 351C, open chamber heads, and a Torker intake.
It ran great - slightly faster than a standard C6 Corvette. I had to let up
to keep from running into him. And, that's with big port heads, and the
stock crappy camshaft.

One note, though. Whatever engine you use, make sure you address oiling. A
Pantera can easily pull enough G's to starve the pickup. What happens next
is usually bent pushrods, if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, you spin
a
bearing.

Everyone has their own list. My list is:

1. Pantera specific oil pan (non negotiable - if you run the car hard).
2. Moroso oil restrictors.
3. Solid lifters (can't collapse if oil pressure drops)
4. Run an external line from the pressure port to the back of the block.
5. Install bushings in the lifter bores.

I've done 1-3.

The engine I'm working on right now will have #4.

I considered #5, but I decided against it. If it were still apart, I'd do
the bushings, though. I spun the oil pump with the intake off. It's
amazing how much oil escapes into the lifter valley - and I wasn't even
turning the engine over.

Good Luck,

Will.

-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of P. Rimov
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:33 PM
To: deTomaso at realbig.com
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351 Windsor??

With your background racing Chevrolets perhaps you should use neither the
351 Windsor or the 351 Cleveland but the latest and greatest Chevrolet
offering. Dare to be different and be ridiculed, teased, criticized and yet
admired. I don't believe the big ported heads are exactly worthless on the
street but Chevrolet affectionatos tend to be unaccustomed to the power
surge that is realized with Cleveland heads at higher rpms. Additionally,
there is a world of difference in the feel of a Windsor powered Pantera and
a Cleveland powered Pantera. Both have their advantages and disadvantages
that numbers alone can not exemplify.

Cheers

Paul
----- Original Message ----- 
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:39 AM
Subject: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351 Windsor??

> Ok you ford guys, why would I want to put a 351 Cleveland back in my
> Pantera, instead of using a much better engine, the 351 Windsor??
>
> I have used and raced Chevrolets all my life until I purchased my 73L. It

> of course came with a 351 Cleveland with the big ported heads (which are
> useless on the street). I had a custom built 351 Cleveland with Aluminum
> Heads and complete roller motor built, and It is ready to go into the car
> now. I happened to be at a Barnes & Noble and purchased a book on
Windsor

> engines, it seems to me that would have been a better way to go. Any
> input would be greatly appreciated as I know nothing about ford engines.
>
> I hope I didn't open a can of worms, but I think we could all benefit
from

> this discussion. Thanks.
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