[DeTomaso] External Oil Line
Kirby Schrader
kirby.schrader at gmail.com
Sat Jan 3 13:48:09 EST 2009
OK, OK..... I can't refute that kind of hard facts!
And I love hard facts from solid testing....
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 3, 2009, at 11:07, "John Taphorn" <jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com>
wrote:
> Will, Thanks for the link
>
> This is an interesting thread addressing an issue that has been
> debated frequently on this Forum. My personal test running multiple
> gauges with Dan Mixon as a witness reinforced the benefit in our
> eyes of an external line. This individual takes the testing to
> another level of scrutiny. While I am confident these tests will not
> convince everyone, and perhaps they shouldn't as they have not been
> repeated on multiple engines, they do serve to contribute actual
> data to the discussion previously championed by many with a gut
> hypothesis.
>
> To keep the search simple, I copied a piece of the discussion below.
>
> "I just give the facts and try to avoid the big debate.
>
> Greg Gach took a Clevo and put 5 oil pressure gauges on it. One near
> oil pump above filter, one in rear top of block and the other 3 were
> between the lifter bores drilled into the oil galley.
>
> He ran the engine hard and watched the center oil pressure gauges
> drop compared to the end ones. He then added an external oil line
> and ran it hard again. He saw the oil pressure equalize on all 5
> gauges.
>
> He now runs an external oil line on EVERY Clevo he touches whether
> it be street or strip."
>
> And another -
> "I talked to Greg, the guy that hooked up 5 oil pressure gauges.
> Yes he had them all plumbed separately inside the car. Yes he could
> see as well as a passenger just what each gauge was reading at
> various rpm's.
> He did this because he was always loosing no.3 and.7 cylinders when
> he revved OVER 8000rpm. I asked exactly where did you hook the
> gauges. He showed me a bare block and pointed it out. Very simple.
> He put 3 gauges on the right side (passengers side) lifter oil
> gallies, one in the center of the left side galley and one in the
> normal location on the top of the block.
> I'll explain more precisely. If you look at the block where the
> lifters bores are, you can see a space between each set of lifter
> bores. He drilled and tapped each space on the right side and the
> center space on the left side. The gauges were reading the pressure
> present at the lifter galley oil feed in the block.
> At high rpm while drag racing the center two gauges would drop oil
> pressure. The higher he revved past 8000 the more pressure would
> fall. The other 3 gauges were OK, just the center two which is the
> exact center of both left and right lifter galleries.
> He then plumbed the external line. He drilled and tapped the
> "normal" oil pressure hole out to 3/8" pipe size. He ran a steel
> 3/8" brake line from the block fitting near the oil filter to the
> enlarged hole in the top of the block at the rear of the manifold.
> He went drag racing and ALL GAUGES WERE EQUALIZED ! Including the
> center two. He doesn't loose 3 and 7 any more. "
>
> JT
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net
> >
> To: "'Thomas Tornblom'" <Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE>; "'Kirby Schrader'"
> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> Cc: <deTomaso at realbig.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
> Windsor??
>
>
>>
>> My theory is it would save the engines that bend pushrods.
>>
>> There's a pretty good thread on www.351cleveland.net that discusses
>> oiling.
>> The title is 13.5GPM. Most of these guys are drag racers, so they're
>> actually turning 7K or 8K RPM on a regular basis.
>>
>> One of the guys, Wydendorf, even sells a kit to bush the lifter
>> bores.
>>
>> If you do a search on www.351cleveland.net, you'll find other
>> threads on
>> oiling. They bring up some ideas that we don't normally discuss.
>> For
>> example, they claim it's important how the front cam bearing is
>> installed.
>> If you install it by the book, it bleeds too much pressure. They
>> say it
>> should be as far forward as possible.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas.Tornblom at Sun.COM [mailto:Thomas.Tornblom at Sun.COM] On
>> Behalf Of
>> Thomas Tornblom
>> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 4:04 AM
>> To: Kirby Schrader
>> Cc: Will Kooiman; deTomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>> Windsor??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3 jan 2009 kl. 08.22 skrev Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> Will,
>>>
>>> I ran 1, 2, 3 on my 377 stroker for years. I have never been
>>> convinced
>>> that #4 is a necessary mod.
>>
>> This was discussed some time ago and I think most engines waste the
>> front bearings, which goes against the theory of the external feed
>> line.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Never needed it on mine, at least. Wound it to 7200rpm a lot....
>>>
>>> #5 is an option that I would do only if required.
>>>
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2 Jan 2009, at 11:40 PM, Will Kooiman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why use a 351C? Mostly so you don't have to play games to make
>>>> things fit,
>>>> but also... why not?
>>>>
>>>> I think you've been misinformed about the 351W being a much better
>>>> engine.
>>>> The 351W gets more press, but I sure wouldn't call it better.
>>>>
>>>> Put it this way, if you take a stock 351W and do a basic
>>>> performance
>>>> rebuild, and then you do the same thing to a 351C, the 351C is
>>>> probably
>>>> going to be faster - even for a street build. If you put aluminum
>>>> heads on
>>>> the 351W, do the same thing with the 351C. The 351C is still going
>>>> to be
>>>> faster.
>>>>
>>>> If you're looking for high HP - 408W with big Windsor aluminum
>>>> heads
>>>> vs.
>>>> 408C with Kaase heads & intake... the 408C is going to stomp the
>>>> 408W.
>>>>
>>>> Don't believe what you read about the ports being too large. I
>>>> drove my car
>>>> for 3-4 years with a stock 351C, open chamber heads, and a Torker
>>>> intake.
>>>> It ran great - slightly faster than a standard C6 Corvette. I had
>>>> to let up
>>>> to keep from running into him. And, that's with big port heads,
>>>> and
>>>> the
>>>> stock crappy camshaft.
>>>>
>>>> One note, though. Whatever engine you use, make sure you address
>>>> oiling. A
>>>> Pantera can easily pull enough G's to starve the pickup. What
>>>> happens next
>>>> is usually bent pushrods, if you're lucky. If you're unlucky, you
>>>> spin a
>>>> bearing.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone has their own list. My list is:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Pantera specific oil pan (non negotiable - if you run the car
>>>> hard).
>>>> 2. Moroso oil restrictors.
>>>> 3. Solid lifters (can't collapse if oil pressure drops)
>>>> 4. Run an external line from the pressure port to the back of the
>>>> block.
>>>> 5. Install bushings in the lifter bores.
>>>>
>>>> I've done 1-3.
>>>>
>>>> The engine I'm working on right now will have #4.
>>>>
>>>> I considered #5, but I decided against it. If it were still apart,
>>>> I'd do
>>>> the bushings, though. I spun the oil pump with the intake off.
>>>> It's
>>>> amazing how much oil escapes into the lifter valley - and I wasn't
>>>> even
>>>> turning the engine over.
>>>>
>>>> Good Luck,
>>>>
>>>> Will.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
>>>> ] On
>>>> Behalf Of P. Rimov
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:33 PM
>>>> To: deTomaso at realbig.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>>>> Windsor??
>>>>
>>>> With your background racing Chevrolets perhaps you should use
>>>> neither the
>>>> 351 Windsor or the 351 Cleveland but the latest and greatest
>>>> Chevrolet
>>>> offering. Dare to be different and be ridiculed, teased, criticized
>>>> and yet
>>>> admired. I don't believe the big ported heads are exactly worthless
>>>> on the
>>>> street but Chevrolet affectionatos tend to be unaccustomed to the
>>>> power
>>>> surge that is realized with Cleveland heads at higher rpms.
>>>> Additionally,
>>>> there is a world of difference in the feel of a Windsor powered
>>>> Pantera and
>>>> a Cleveland powered Pantera. Both have their advantages and
>>>> disadvantages
>>>> that numbers alone can not exemplify.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:39 AM
>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>>>> Windsor??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ok you ford guys, why would I want to put a 351 Cleveland back
>>>>> in my
>>>>> Pantera, instead of using a much better engine, the 351 Windsor??
>>>>>
>>>>> I have used and raced Chevrolets all my life until I purchased my
>>>>> 73L. It
>>>>
>>>>> of course came with a 351 Cleveland with the big ported heads
>>>>> (which are
>>>>> useless on the street). I had a custom built 351 Cleveland with
>>>>> Aluminum
>>>>> Heads and complete roller motor built, and It is ready to go into
>>>>> the car
>>>>> now. I happened to be at a Barnes & Noble and purchased a book on
>>>>> Windsor
>>>>
>>>>> engines, it seems to me that would have been a better way to go.
>>>>> Any
>>>>> input would be greatly appreciated as I know nothing about ford
>>>>> engines.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope I didn't open a can of worms, but I think we could all
>>>>> benefit from
>>>>
>>>>> this discussion. Thanks.
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