[DeTomaso] External Oil Line

Rich hoppe1 at cox.net
Sat Jan 3 13:17:11 EST 2009 

I happen to believe in the external line.  It just makes sense to me.
If you decide to install one, before you build and tank your engine, you 
need to enlarge the hole in the block underneath the oil sender.  It is a 
small hole that normally feeds pressure to only the sender.   I drilled it 
larger to allow the rear line to deliver more capacity.
Rich
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Taphorn" <jtaphorn at kingwoodcable.com>
To: "Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>; "'Thomas Tornblom'" 
<Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE>; "'Kirby Schrader'" <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
Cc: <deTomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:07 AM
Subject: [DeTomaso] External Oil Line


> Will, Thanks for the link
>
> This is an interesting thread addressing an issue that has been debated
> frequently on this Forum.  My personal test running multiple gauges with 
> Dan
> Mixon as a witness reinforced the benefit in our eyes of an external line.
> This individual takes the testing to another level of scrutiny. While I am
> confident these tests will not convince everyone, and perhaps they 
> shouldn't
> as they have not been repeated on multiple engines, they do serve to
> contribute actual data to the discussion previously championed by many 
> with
> a gut hypothesis.
>
> To keep the search simple, I copied a piece of the discussion below.
>
> "I just give the facts and try to avoid the big debate.
>
> Greg Gach took a Clevo and put 5 oil pressure gauges on it. One near oil
> pump above filter, one in rear top of block and the other 3 were between 
> the
> lifter bores drilled into the oil galley.
>
> He ran the engine hard and watched the center oil pressure gauges drop
> compared to the end ones. He then added an external oil line and ran it 
> hard
> again. He saw the oil pressure equalize on all 5 gauges.
>
> He now runs an external oil line on EVERY Clevo he touches whether it be
> street or strip."
>
> And another -
> "I talked to Greg, the guy that hooked up 5 oil pressure gauges.
> Yes he had them all plumbed separately inside the car. Yes he could see as
> well as a passenger just what each gauge was reading at various rpm's.
> He did this because he was always loosing no.3 and.7 cylinders when he
> revved OVER 8000rpm. I asked exactly where did you hook the gauges. He
> showed me a bare block and pointed it out. Very simple. He put 3 gauges on
> the right side (passengers side) lifter oil gallies, one in the center of
> the left side galley and one in the normal location on the top of the 
> block.
> I'll explain more precisely. If you look at the block where the lifters
> bores are, you can see a space between each set of lifter bores. He 
> drilled
> and tapped each space on the right side and the center space on the left
> side. The gauges were reading the pressure present at the lifter galley 
> oil
> feed in the block.
> At high rpm while drag racing the center two gauges would drop oil 
> pressure.
> The higher he revved past 8000 the more pressure would fall. The other 3
> gauges were OK, just the center two which is the exact center of both left
> and right lifter galleries.
> He then plumbed the external line. He drilled and tapped the "normal" oil
> pressure hole out to 3/8" pipe size. He ran a steel 3/8" brake line from 
> the
> block fitting near the oil filter to the enlarged hole in the top of the
> block at the rear of the manifold.
> He went drag racing and ALL GAUGES WERE EQUALIZED ! Including the center
> two. He doesn't loose 3 and 7 any more. "
>
> JT
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>
> To: "'Thomas Tornblom'" <Thomas.Tornblom at Hax.SE>; "'Kirby Schrader'"
> <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>
> Cc: <deTomaso at realbig.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351 
> Windsor??
>
>
>>
>> My theory is it would save the engines that bend pushrods.
>>
>> There's a pretty good thread on www.351cleveland.net that discusses
>> oiling.
>> The title is 13.5GPM.  Most of these guys are drag racers, so they're
>> actually turning 7K or 8K RPM on a regular basis.
>>
>> One of the guys, Wydendorf, even sells a kit to bush the lifter bores.
>>
>> If you do a search on www.351cleveland.net, you'll find other threads on
>> oiling.  They bring up some ideas that we don't normally discuss.  For
>> example, they claim it's important how the front cam bearing is 
>> installed.
>> If you install it by the book, it bleeds too much pressure.  They say it
>> should be as far forward as possible.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Thomas.Tornblom at Sun.COM [mailto:Thomas.Tornblom at Sun.COM] On Behalf
>> Of
>> Thomas Tornblom
>> Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 4:04 AM
>> To: Kirby Schrader
>> Cc: Will Kooiman; deTomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>> Windsor??
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 3 jan 2009 kl. 08.22 skrev Kirby Schrader <kirby.schrader at gmail.com>:
>>
>>>
>>> Will,
>>>
>>> I ran 1, 2, 3 on my 377 stroker for years. I have never been convinced
>>> that #4 is a necessary mod.
>>
>> This was discussed some time ago and I think most engines waste the
>> front bearings, which goes against the theory of the external feed line.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Never needed it on mine, at least. Wound it to 7200rpm a lot....
>>>
>>> #5 is an option that I would do only if required.
>>>
>>> Kirby
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2 Jan 2009, at 11:40 PM, Will Kooiman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why use a 351C?  Mostly so you don't have to play games to make
>>>> things fit,
>>>> but also... why not?
>>>>
>>>> I think you've been misinformed about the 351W being a much better
>>>> engine.
>>>> The 351W gets more press, but I sure wouldn't call it better.
>>>>
>>>> Put it this way, if you take a stock 351W and do a basic performance
>>>> rebuild, and then you do the same thing to a 351C, the 351C is
>>>> probably
>>>> going to be faster - even for a street build.  If you put aluminum
>>>> heads on
>>>> the 351W, do the same thing with the 351C.  The 351C is still going
>>>> to be
>>>> faster.
>>>>
>>>> If you're looking for high HP - 408W with big Windsor aluminum heads
>>>> vs.
>>>> 408C with Kaase heads & intake... the 408C is going to stomp the
>>>> 408W.
>>>>
>>>> Don't believe what you read about the ports being too large.  I
>>>> drove my car
>>>> for 3-4 years with a stock 351C, open chamber heads, and a Torker
>>>> intake.
>>>> It ran great - slightly faster than a standard C6 Corvette.  I had
>>>> to let up
>>>> to keep from running into him.  And, that's with big port heads, and
>>>> the
>>>> stock crappy camshaft.
>>>>
>>>> One note, though.  Whatever engine you use, make sure you address
>>>> oiling.  A
>>>> Pantera can easily pull enough G's to starve the pickup.  What
>>>> happens next
>>>> is usually bent pushrods, if you're lucky.  If you're unlucky, you
>>>> spin a
>>>> bearing.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone has their own list.  My list is:
>>>>
>>>> 1.  Pantera specific oil pan (non negotiable - if you run the car
>>>> hard).
>>>> 2.  Moroso oil restrictors.
>>>> 3.  Solid lifters (can't collapse if oil pressure drops)
>>>> 4.  Run an external line from the pressure port to the back of the
>>>> block.
>>>> 5.  Install bushings in the lifter bores.
>>>>
>>>> I've done 1-3.
>>>>
>>>> The engine I'm working on right now will have #4.
>>>>
>>>> I considered #5, but I decided against it.  If it were still apart,
>>>> I'd do
>>>> the bushings, though.  I spun the oil pump with the intake off.  It's
>>>> amazing how much oil escapes into the lifter valley - and I wasn't
>>>> even
>>>> turning the engine over.
>>>>
>>>> Good Luck,
>>>>
>>>> Will.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
>>>> ] On
>>>> Behalf Of P. Rimov
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 8:33 PM
>>>> To: deTomaso at realbig.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>>>> Windsor??
>>>>
>>>> With your background racing Chevrolets perhaps you should use
>>>> neither the
>>>> 351 Windsor or the 351 Cleveland but the latest and greatest
>>>> Chevrolet
>>>> offering. Dare to be different and be ridiculed, teased, criticized
>>>> and yet
>>>> admired. I don't believe the big ported heads are exactly worthless
>>>> on the
>>>> street but Chevrolet affectionatos tend to be unaccustomed to the
>>>> power
>>>> surge that is realized with Cleveland heads at higher rpms.
>>>> Additionally,
>>>> there is a world of difference in the feel of a Windsor powered
>>>> Pantera and
>>>> a Cleveland powered Pantera. Both have their advantages and
>>>> disadvantages
>>>> that numbers alone can not exemplify.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:39 AM
>>>> Subject: [DeTomaso] Why use a 351 Cleveland rather then a 351
>>>> Windsor??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Ok you ford guys, why would I want to put a 351 Cleveland back in my
>>>>> Pantera, instead of using a much better engine, the 351 Windsor??
>>>>>
>>>>> I have used and raced Chevrolets all my life until I purchased my
>>>>> 73L.  It
>>>>
>>>>> of course came with a 351 Cleveland with the big ported heads
>>>>> (which are
>>>>> useless on the street).  I had a custom built 351 Cleveland with
>>>>> Aluminum
>>>>> Heads and complete roller motor built, and It is ready to go into
>>>>> the car
>>>>> now.  I happened to be at a Barnes & Noble and purchased a book on
>>>>> Windsor
>>>>
>>>>> engines, it seems to me that would have been a better way to go.
>>>>> Any
>>>>> input would be greatly appreciated as I know nothing about ford
>>>>> engines.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope I didn't open a can of worms, but I think we could all
>>>>> benefit from
>>>>
>>>>> this discussion.  Thanks.
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