[DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
Göran Malmberg
hemipanter at hemipanter.se
Sat Jan 3 10:50:29 EST 2009
The big stones will break things while the fin-dust wears things out,
but it is a long term issue. The point I will make concerning
Panteras is thet the dust situation is extreeme. But a race only car
will last for a while in any case.
Goran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>
To: "'Göran Malmberg'" <hemipanter at hemipanter.se>; "'Tomas Gunnarsson'"
<guson at home.se>; "'Pantera REALBIG forum'" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
Yes, I agree that I could have sucked in lots of smallish stuff, even some
small rocks. I just don't think I sucked in anything large enough to drop
the valve or explode the piston. Dropping the valve head due to a valve
defect or due to using street valves makes more sense to me.
By the way, I knew it would suck in dust. I planned on taking it apart
after the race and cleaning up the cylinders. I would have run filters, but
I didn't have time to get them (or make them) before the race. I figured
I'd be safe for one race.
-----Original Message-----
From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com] On
Behalf Of Göran Malmberg
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 9:00 AM
To: Tomas Gunnarsson; Pantera REALBIG forum
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
The Pantera is a roadvacuumcleaner, using the engine compartment for a
garbage can! Like our loungs, it is the smallest part in the dust that
destroys.
Goran
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tomas Gunnarsson" <guson at home.se>
To: "Pantera REALBIG forum" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
The amount of gravel I find sitting in the intake/carb area (not to mention
inside my closed air cleaner) indicates that there's a good chance of
sucking in all sorts of smallish hard objects if you use filterless carb(s).
Tomas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Borcich" <tborcich at msn.com>
To: "Pantera Will Kooiman" <wkooiman at earthlink.net>; "Pantera Ken Green"
<kenn_green at yahoo.com>; "Pantera Doug Braun" <doug at silicondesigns.com>;
"Pantera REALBIG forum" <detomaso at realbig.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
> Will, so so sorry to hear of your broken valve...that really sucks. I
> totally agree with you
> that a minor rock or piece of debris would not do that to a valve. I had
> a McLaren CanAm
> car that also ran unfiltered Webbers. The tires were Goodyear Eagles
> (Indy/Champ car qualifying
> tires/gumballs, that had a lap or two and were thrown out...I got them
> free). When those
> puppies heated up it was like warm tar and I remember have pieces of
> gravel the size of dimes
> and nickles stuck to the tires coming back into the pits and pieces of
> rock and debris
> etc all over the engine and through out the engine compartment. It did
> worry me occassionally to see
> all the debris, but I never lost a valve. And knowing the Pantera and the
> unibody structure
> protecting the motor from the tires, I think you'de would have to had
> driven through a
> gravel storm to catch one down the Webber, plus it would probably stop
> first at the internals
> just past the horn, or stop at the butterflys and jam them open (God
> forbid). If it was big enough
> to break the valve off I think you would have felt something funny.
>
> I will take your advice on spending a few more bucks per valve. My thought
> was I don't
> need racing valves...but considering all the problems I keep hearing about
> I will spend a bit more.
> Like you I'd be kicking myself for saving a few bucks but losing a valve.
>
> Thanks for the great advice!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Tom Borcich
>
>
>
>
>
>> From: wkooiman at earthlink.net
>> To: tborcich at msn.com; kenn_green at yahoo.com; doug at silicondesigns.com;
>> detomaso at realbig.com
>> Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
>> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 23:55:18 -0600
>>
>> I have pieces of some Ferrea 5000 series valves on my bench, along with a
>> 351C block that needs 1 sleeve.
>>
>> I have 6000 series valves in my next engine.
>>
>> The price difference between 5000 and 6000 series valves is miniscule
>> compared to the rest of the cost to build an engine.
>>
>> There are 2 theories on why my engine came apart.
>>
>> One theory is that it ingested debris through unfiltered Webers. The
>> debris
>> caused a valve to bend and then to separate from the valve stem.
>>
>> The second theory is the valve head came off on its own.
>>
>> What's known is the valve head came off, banged around a few revolutions,
>> disintegrated the piston, and put 3 or 4 holes in the cylinder.
>>
>> I believe the second theory for 2 reasons. First, I have a hard time
>> believing it could have sucked in a rock, nail, etc. large enough to
>> cause
>> the valve head to separate. Second, I've read 3 or 4 stories about
>> people
>> that had the same results - with 5000 series valves.
>>
>> You're best bet is to talk to some engine builders about the different
>> valves. Use the best valves you can find.
>>
>> I don't think Summit or Jegs carry Ferrea 5000 series valves. I believe
>> I
>> got mine from Flatlander Racing.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Thomas Borcich
>> Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 10:58 PM
>> To: Pantera Ken Green; Pantera Doug Braun; Pantera REALBIG forum
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
>>
>>
>>
>> Ford
>> BOSS 302-351C-429-460
>>
>>
>> F5045
>> E
>> 1.710
>> 11/32
>> 5.060
>> .250
>> 12° Under Cut-Dish Head
>> $10.50
>>
>>
>> F5145
>> E
>> 1.760
>> 11/32
>> 5.060
>> .250
>> 9° Flo Dish Head
>> $10.50
>>
>>
>> F5037
>> I
>> 2.190
>> 11/32
>> 5.300
>> .250
>> 10° Under Cut-Dish Head
>> $10.50
>>
>>
>> F5031
>> I
>> 2.250
>> 11/32
>> 5.271
>> .250
>> 10° Under Cut-Dish Head
>> $10.50
>>
>>
>> Part #
>> Type
>> Head
>>
>> Diam
>> Stem
>>
>> Diam
>> Overall
>>
>> Length
>> Tip
>>
>> Length
>> References
>> Price
>>
>> Per Valve
>> Hope you can see the chart I cut and pasted...the Ferrea valve shows two
>> different cuts for exhaust...a 12 degree under-cut
>> dish head vs. a 9 degree flo dish head. I think the first one (12 degree
>> under cut) is better? This is the 5000 series
>> which is probably more to my use (street and a few track days). Or the
>> Milodons...both are about the same cost.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Tom Borcich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:44:01 -0800
>> From: kenn_green at yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
>> To: doug at silicondesigns.com; detomaso at realbig.com; tborcich at msn.com
>>
>> Flatlander Racing appears to have the Manley Severe Duty 351C valves for
>> $398 for all 16:
>>
>> http://www.flatlanderracing.com/
>>
>> They also have the Ferrea 6000 Series valves for $15 each, has anyone
>> tried
>> them? Some people seem to prefer the Ferrea valves, I don't recall why.
>>
>> They are usually cheaper than Summit if they have the part.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> --- On Fri, 1/2/09, Thomas Borcich <tborcich at msn.com> wrote:
>>
>> From: Thomas Borcich <tborcich at msn.com>
>> Subject: Re: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
>> To: doug at silicondesigns.com, "Pantera REALBIG forum"
>> <detomaso at realbig.com>
>> Date: Friday, January 2, 2009, 7:23 PM
>>
>> Thanks for all the info back on the one piece valves...new valves it is.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Tom Borcich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > From: doug at silicondesigns.com
>> > To: tborcich at msn.com
>> > Subject: RE: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
>> > Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 13:45:33 -0800
>> >
>> > Thomas,
>> >
>> > One good choice for valves are Manley Racemaster (Severe Duty)
>> one-piece
>> > stainless. You can get them here for a reasonable price.
>> >
>> > www.summitracing.com
>> >
>> > Enter part number MAN-11782-8 (intake) & MAN-11783-8 (Exhaust)
>> >
>> > Doug Braun
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: detomaso-bounces at realbig.com
>> > [mailto:detomaso-bounces at realbig.com]On Behalf Of Thomas Borcich
>> > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:43 AM
>> > To: Pantera REALBIG forum
>> > Subject: [DeTomaso] Quenched Head Rework or Tweaks???
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! 2009 is going to be a much better year cause the
>> > Panter
>> > should be back together.
>> >
>> > I followed Jack's advice to go from the 72 open chambers to 71
>> > quenched chamber heads...they should arrive in a week or two from a
>> > fellow Pantera owner who had a complete set sitting on the shelf and
>> > gave me a smoking deal (Thanks Julian!!). I'm 90% sure the valves are
>> > original OEM. What kind of valve failure rate do the OEM values have
>> > once their three and a half decades old? I recall they're two piece,
>> and
>> > have read that some opt for one piece valves....I'm ok with
>> > the OEM's for now if their dependable at this age.
>> >
>> > I'll end with a 10.5 to 1 CR+/-, (I will probably surface the heads to
>> make
>> > sure
>> > they're flat), balanced stock lower end with TRW forged flat tops.
>> I'm
>> > removing the dual points and sticking in one of the electronic
>> > pointless
>> > modules
>> > with a rev limiter to keep it around 6,000-6,500. Cam was replaced
>> (previous
>> > owner) with a 498 lift intake and 510 lift exhaust, duration 262 intake
>> > 272 exhaust. I will make sure the cam is set at 0 degrees.
>> >
>> > Should I do any porting (JUST KIDDING!!! Couldn't resist asking that).
>> > Actually
>> > I may just clean up and smooth the exhaust ports.
>> >
>> > Are OEM springs ok to 6500 rpm if this combination will go that high?
>> >
>> > I believe the heads are ready to bolt on, the seats are in pretty good
>> shape
>> > with a recent 3 angle grind and the stem seals are soft and pliable.
>> > From
>> > pictures they look very clean and to have very little mileage on them
>> since
>> > a rework.
>> >
>> > In high school I had a 67 Mustang GT Fast Back with a 289...stock Ford
>> valve
>> > train...
>> > I reved the sheeeeet out of that motor for years and never lost a valve
>> > or
>> > kissed
>> > a piston...definitely floated the valves a few times....point is the
>> > 351C
>> > has to have as good or better stock valve train than the 289...so why
>> > change for my purposes are (fun driving and a track day a few times a
>> year).
>> > I'd rather put time into other areas of the car to get back on the
>> road.
>> >
>> > Tom Borcich
>> >
>> >
>> > #4382
>> >
>> >
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